In the last roundtable it was mentioned that VR has been in talks with numerous publishers. I’m not really all that knowledgeable about the history of the various publishers that are out there, but I’m curious and maybe even a bit concerned as to whether or not there are actually any publishers that have a flawless or near flawless track record of keeping to the vision of a game as it was originally intended even though they may have contributed to its financing?
I'm also not personally too familiar with the variety of publishers out there, but I know there are at least a handful that are self aware enough to let the developers make the game and not to dip their fingers into the process. Honestly, the ones you have to be more wary of are the ones that will try to steal ownership of the game out from under the developers by hiding things deep in the contract with vaguely worded sentences so they can take 100% of the profit, churn out cheap merchandise to cash grab, and then abandon the title on the side of the road when it's not making money anymore.
I don't think that happens too often with MMOs, but for other games it happens more often than you'd think. Cave Story is a good example of this. If you ever want to play Cave Story, for the love of god do not purchase it, whether that be on Steam or anywhere else. Not one single penny goes to the creator of the game, who made it 100% on his own in his spare time. It's available for free on the creator's website, which the scumbags who stole the game from the him can't do anything about because the game was already on his site for free before they made the contract.
Bringing in an outside publisher is usually the harbinger of doom. The vision Brad McQuaid had for the next great MMO will be squashed in exchange for putting out a product that can start earning a return on their investment. The game we have seen in development to date could turn into something entirely different. Speaking hypothetically of course.
I take it sinse Ben specifically mentioned they are avoiding making a quick buck, that they have turned down offers from publishers that would have asked them to stray from The Vision.
I suspect that there are publishers out there that are interested in Pantheon, but like many people may still be skeptical about the game's chance to launch until it gets much closer. If Pantheon continues marching towards alpha and beta, and gets close to release, they may start getting more serious attention from publishers. It’s too early to tell yet.
I'm reminded of the one small scene in the movie "Wag the Dog" where the dustin hoffman character laments just this thing: something like where the money starts to interfere with the creative process. it seems like you are talking about the same dynamic that exists in film production, also exists in game development.
They have to have an outside publisher to launch this game, there is no way they can distribute it themselves. Let alone the financial aspects. There aren't a lot of good options out there, there aren't a lot of realistic options period. The best we can hope for is Microsoft AMAZON. They might be the only one that would be willing to not go the cash shop route. Might.
I think I should clarify something before this thread gets any longer and before it goes off the rails in a direction I had not intended. Just for the record, I am not interested in discussing the merits of using a publisher over self-publishing. I am strictly interested in knowing which publishers would best suit the vision that VR has for this game and what their track record is on a few of their titles. I would imagine there is someone on these forums that is quite knowledgeable in this area, so I’m just curious to hear what they have to say.
@Mathir - What can you tell me about Microsoft? Why is it that you put them at the top of your list?
Nekentros said:In the last roundtable it was mentioned that VR has been in talks with numerous publishers. I’m not really all that knowledgeable about the history of the various publishers that are out there, but I’m curious and maybe even a bit concerned as to whether or not there are actually any publishers that have a flawless or near flawless track record of keeping to the vision of a game as it was originally intended even though they may have contributed to its financing?
The only one I can think of would be CD Projekt, a Polish video game publisher and developer. They are best known for the Witcher series and the upcoming Cyberpunk 2077. They know RPGs but single player only so far. I believe they also own GOG, a video game distribution service.
zaktaros said:The only one I can think of would be CD Projekt, a Polish video game publisher and developer. They are best known for the Witcher series and the upcoming Cyberpunk 2077. They know RPGs but single player only so far. I believe they also own GOG, a video game distribution service.
CD Projekt sounds promising. I really like GOG because of how they vet their game selection.
Nekentros said:I think I should clarify something before this thread gets any longer and before it goes off the rails in a direction I had not intended. Just for the record, I am not interested in discussing the merits of using a publisher over self-publishing. I am strictly interested in knowing which publishers would best suit the vision that VR has for this game and what their track record is on a few of their titles. I would imagine there is someone on these forums that is quite knowledgeable in this area, so I’m just curious to hear what they have to say.
@Mathir - What can you tell me about Microsoft? Why is it that you put them at the top of your list?
Sorry, meant Amazon for the following reasons.
1. Deep pockets primarily. They don't have to force a cash shop, they can take more risk with the subscription model.
2. Ties with John Smedley working there, he was high on Pantheon early in its development according to Brad, and they were very close, he might have enough pull to get Amazon interested. He's always had Brad's back in the past many times over. Obviously, Pantheon is Brad's last game ever.
3. Jeff Bezos was an EQ1 fan. He can afford to be self-indulgent with the only similar game in development.
4. Amazon has struggled with the recent games their own studio has released, and New World doesn't look like it will fare much better. They obviously want an MMO in their stable.
Now, the negative part with Amazon is Microsoft is that they backed Brad's last game in Vanguard before pulling out after it ran long and over-budget. They might hold a grudge that even Smedley can't smooth over. John Smedley believes in microtransactions and the Free to Play model, he pioneered them. Who knows if he'd be willing to go back to subscription based. And, finally, New World isn't great, but the MMO engine Amazon developed looks good. They have another secret MMO in development that Smedley is already in charge of. They might not want competition inhouse.
The other likely publisher is Ten Cent (Epic Games), but with all that is going on with China at the moment, I'm not sure how feasible that is. Ten Cent has already been put on a Watch List to the point that Valorant players are a little worried.
Mathir said:Now, the negative part of Microsoft is that they backed Brad's last game in Vanguard before pulling out after it ran long and over-budget. They might hold a grudge that even Smedley can't smooth over. Also, John believes in microtransactions and the Free to Play model, he pioneered them. Who knows if he'd be willing to go back to subscription based. And, finally, New World isn't great, but the MMO engine Microsoft developed looks good. They have another secret MMO in development that Smedley is already in charge of. They might not want competition inhouse.
The other likely publisher is Ten Cent (Epic Games), but with all that is going on with China at the moment, I'm not sure how feasible that is. Ten Cent has already been put on a Watch List to the point that Valorant players are a little worried.
Brad's own admitted mistake there was that that deal with Microsoft was more of a handshake than a written contract. First big mistake.
I would avoid Ten Cent like the plague at the moment. There's too many potential business pitfalls with that one currently.
Even some of the more bleh of publishers could be a decent fit if the contract was good and the law folks go through it with a fine tooth comb. The number of MMO games have shriveled up in recent years so the number of publishers still dabbling in them are not quite as large as they used to be. I think the biggest thing is that almost every publisher is going to want to maximize profits and that will almost certainly include them wanting to add microtransactions to some degree. Hopefully VR can find one a bit more flexible. But who can say?
Manouk said:I'm reminded of the one small scene in the movie "Wag the Dog" where the dustin hoffman character laments just this thing: something like where the money starts to interfere with the creative process. it seems like you are talking about the same dynamic that exists in film production, also exists in game development.
Kevin Smiths university talk about being asked to make superman and his difference of opinion to the producer also comes to mind re movies, absolutely hilarious story worth getting through because the ending is amazing!
Mathir said:
1. Deep pockets primarily. They don't have to force a cash shop, they can take more risk with the subscription model.
2. Ties with John Smedley working there, he was high on Pantheon early in its development according to Brad, and they were very close, he might have enough pull to get Microsoft interested. He's always had Brad's back in the past many times over. Obviously, Pantheon is Brad's last game ever.
3. Jeff Bezos was an EQ1 fan. He can afford to be self-indulgent with the only similar game in development.
4. Microsoft has struggled with the recent games their own studio has released, and New World doesn't look like it will fare much better. They obviously want an MMO in their stable.
Just as a heads up, you're confusing Microsoft with Amazon. Amazon is definitely trying to make inroads quickly into the MMO market, but New World has a lot to prove still before launch. The preview was fairly fun to play, but it's clear there is still a lot of work to be done to even hope for any longevity to the game. Having that amount of capital would be nice, but I don't think VR teaming up with them would be beneficial for either party.
Grime said: I wouldn’t worry too much about outside publishers at this point- it looks like most of the mechanics and systems are in place. The worst an outside publisher could do at this point is cut down on the amount of zones upon release, and set them up for expansions.
I'm not really concerned about release, it's what might happen 3-5 years post release when the player base starts to inevitably shrink.
Nekentros said:Grime said: I wouldn’t worry too much about outside publishers at this point- it looks like most of the mechanics and systems are in place. The worst an outside publisher could do at this point is cut down on the amount of zones upon release, and set them up for expansions.I'm not really concerned about release, it's what might happen 3-5 years post release when the player base starts to inevitably shrink.
If I remember correctly it was 2001-2003 3-5 years after 1999) that EQ was at its peak.
Kinda hard to play Nostradamus though when we're talking about a market as volitile as entertainment.
Speaknoevil said:Mathir said:
1. Deep pockets primarily. They don't have to force a cash shop, they can take more risk with the subscription model.
2. Ties with John Smedley working there, he was high on Pantheon early in its development according to Brad, and they were very close, he might have enough pull to get Microsoft interested. He's always had Brad's back in the past many times over. Obviously, Pantheon is Brad's last game ever.
3. Jeff Bezos was an EQ1 fan. He can afford to be self-indulgent with the only similar game in development.
4. Microsoft has struggled with the recent games their own studio has released, and New World doesn't look like it will fare much better. They obviously want an MMO in their stable.
Just as a heads up, you're confusing Microsoft with Amazon. Amazon is definitely trying to make inroads quickly into the MMO market, but New World has a lot to prove still before launch. The preview was fairly fun to play, but it's clear there is still a lot of work to be done to even hope for any longevity to the game. Having that amount of capital would be nice, but I don't think VR teaming up with them would be beneficial for either party.
Yikes, you're 100% right. Egg on face.
Let me fix edit that to be accurate. Thanks.
Do not forget that any publisher with another MMO in the scope/oven/whatever could simply get pantheon to sink it and avoid unnecessary competition with their main project.
It's been done a long time by many different publishers, and that's just a financial move with zero consideration for the product, work, fanbase or anything.
We're not in the years where games are considered exclusive or flourishing, they are seen as companies and they can be sold, bought, killed and shut down with no remorse just to keep control over playerbases.
Grime said: I wouldn’t worry too much about outside publishers at this point- it looks like most of the mechanics and systems are in place. The worst an outside publisher could do at this point is cut down on the amount of zones upon release, and set them up for expansions.
I wish this was the worst thing an outside publisher could do...
Really the idea of Pantheon going to any publisher at all is very scary to me.
They would possibly advertise it for a few months only, but most don't seem to want to pay for marketing so they just try to get players to bring in more players with incentives for inviting friends and otherwise, just let the game die.
Publishers would also start the endless process of asking the devs to make the game more like WoW because players on the forums would yell about the grind and the death consequences and not being able to teleport everywhere etc etc etc.
Pantheon would need a publisher that loves it just as much as the devs do! But it's so different from all the other MMO's these days that one probably doesn't exist :(
Izzic said:I'm also not personally too familiar with the variety of publishers out there, but I know there are at least a handful that are self aware enough to let the developers make the game and not to dip their fingers into the process. Honestly, the ones you have to be more wary of are the ones that will try to steal ownership of the game out from under the developers by hiding things deep in the contract with vaguely worded sentences so they can take 100% of the profit, churn out cheap merchandise to cash grab, and then abandon the title on the side of the road when it's not making money anymore.
I don't think that happens too often with MMOs, but for other games it happens more often than you'd think. Cave Story is a good example of this. If you ever want to play Cave Story, for the love of god do not purchase it, whether that be on Steam or anywhere else. Not one single penny goes to the creator of the game, who made it 100% on his own in his spare time. It's available for free on the creator's website, which the scumbags who stole the game from the him can't do anything about because the game was already on his site for free before they made the contract.
Such a cute sentiment.. Really :).
It happens to most MMOs.
A publisher gets involved. Publisher wants to make a profit sooner rather than later. Publisher forces the game to release too early. The game is either full of bugs, hollow AF or similar.
Game is abandoned by the playerbase relatively early..
Game goes Free to Play to milk the remaining playerbase not necessarily with P2W in-game stuff, but certainly in a way that if you don't pay you can't really play (think limitations to what you can do daily other than senselessly whacking mobs).
Remaining playerbase leaves because they are fed up.
Game is shut down.
Now, I'll gladly admit I am a huge fan and total sucker of flashy cosmetics that brings me nothing but flashy outfits, but that is it. I also recognize that it is one of the only ways that an MMO can stay economically viable. It sucks, but it is sadly also true. MMOs have costs beyond mere development. They need constant patching, constant content, server fees including but not limited to electricity bills/hardware upgrades/business internet connection as well as maintenance staff. You need a functional support staff that can handle player issues both in and out of the game, you need to pay your developers, your managers, your CEO, the cafeteria guys, the electricity, water and heat bills for the various support, development and HQ centers you have around the world, you got property taxes, company taxes and what else have you.
There is no chance in hell the above can in any way be covered by a mere subscription-based model.
There is no reason not to learn from success both World of Warcraft and Final Fantasy 14 survived and is a cash making machine because of their cosmetic webshops (or at least what used to be cosmetic webshops.. not so much anymore).
As for publishers, I think I have made it fairly obvious. They are all rotten to the core that I would not trust any of them with Pantheon.
Ashreon said:Now, I'll gladly admit I am a huge fan and total sucker of flashy cosmetics that brings me nothing but flashy outfits, but that is it. I also recognize that it is one of the only ways that an MMO can stay economically viable. It sucks, but it is sadly also true. MMOs have costs beyond mere development. They need constant patching, constant content, server fees including but not limited to electricity bills/hardware upgrades/business internet connection as well as maintenance staff. You need a functional support staff that can handle player issues both in and out of the game, you need to pay your developers, your managers, your CEO, the cafeteria guys, the electricity, water and heat bills for the various support, development and HQ centers you have around the world, you got property taxes, company taxes and what else have you.
There is no chance in hell the above can in any way be covered by a mere subscription-based model.
This is a totally different company structure and I'm not sure when you ported in from but welcome to 2020. I rebuke your assertion that a subscription model will not work.
The dev team, QA, CS is all telecommute afaik at this time, living in several countries around the world. There is no need for most of the expenses you describe for a brick and mortar HQ, yet alone continental offices. They have Zoom and Skype and workflow software in the cloud lol. Even without Covid19 why would you bother to take on those expenses when they (and the largest tech companies in the world) have proven the efficacy of remote work and some are permanently working from home now.
Server costs are a joke now adays. Amazon, Microsoft, IBM, Oracle, a hundred companies like 1&1 offering dirt cheap bandwidth & servers all managed remotely. Even if VR wants it's own custom server hardware they are not going to be leasing a building, purchasing servers, and creating a server farm / data center from scratch. Brad actually spoke to this in regards to sunsetting the game without support that it could run for cheap forever, there was a thread about it recently.
Yes patches, ongoing content dev, CS will be expenses I'll give you that.
Customer Service though will be less from what we've seen because it is an open world game with contention. In recent streams about CS, Kilsin and others stated how they want to have automated in game tools that help with much of it but due to the nature of the open world game players will have to work things out in a competitive environment, not constant hand holding.
20k subs at $16.99 is $4m per year gross. Say a corporate tax rate of 30% leaves like 2.8m net. In an older interview with the team one of them said they would be able to operate in the tens of thousands of subscribers. Granted that was from like 2018.
Thanks