Forums » The Necromancer

Necro being a CC class, how do you feel?

    • 483 posts
    September 3, 2020 10:38 AM PDT

    Joppa has said Necros will fall under the CC tree like Bards and Enchanters. How do you feel about that? How can they do it to fit the classes theme? Ideas?

    • 6 posts
    September 3, 2020 11:30 AM PDT

    With gripping fears, curses for snares and heavily in the debuff realm, I think a CC focused Necromancer would be a fun and interesting class to master. raising dead mobs to provide further their crowd control abilities would be great fun for the pet aspect as well.

    • 2748 posts
    September 3, 2020 12:52 PM PDT

    I am 100% onboard for Necromancer being a support/CC class, so much flavor and room to see this come to life in a unique way. 

     

    CC via paralyzing fears, grasping hands root, support via stat draining debuffs that transfer as a buff to defensive targets, transferring their own health/mana to group members and restoring it via life/mana taps on mobs, dumbfire "pets" that server specific purposes like grappling a foe or last a short duration as a sort of DoT, maybe even short term or single hit damage shields via bone armor...

     

    Really there are a ton of really cool ways they can go with this that IMO are far more interesting than the boring old poison/disease DOT class with a pet. 

    • 102 posts
    September 3, 2020 2:26 PM PDT

    I desperately wanted to play another Enchanter, like I did in EQ, however, the idea of enduring those dreaded charm mechanics again makes me physically sick. Constant charm breaks, never being able to relax, it was painful, to put it mildly. And incredibly overpowered, that's for sure.

    So, if they make the Necro a legitimate CC class, then I would jump at the chance at playing one... A true CC class that doesn't force you to be on edge 24/7 would be awesome, those charms just weren't fun in the end. Simply going AFK for a few minutes became a chore, and all anyone wanted you for was the OP pet that made all other DPS classes look weak by comparison.

    How about a necro equivalent of mez, something like petrify that freezes the mob on the spot, not fear so that they run, something that renders them incapacitated, just like mez, but given a more 'necromanacer' name (and spell effects, obviously!).

    Coming to think about it, I'd actually prefer to play an Enchanter rival, it would be a nice change, it just needs to actually be good at controlling a crowd, not just snaring or rooting as those things still allow the mobs to cause problems, albeit a little less easily.


    This post was edited by Shadowbound at September 3, 2020 2:27 PM PDT
    • 552 posts
    September 8, 2020 5:25 AM PDT

    Just wanted to point out that Necromancer's are not going to be a 'Support' class in the same way that Enchanter and Bard will be.

    Here is where Joppa mentioned Necromancers back on March 13, 2020 (source) on PantheonPlus show. He was first asked about Bard and then snuck in some Necromancer Beans.

    Minus asks: "Am I right in saying that Bard is being built as a Support class? That's going to be a different support class than the Enchanter but that the ideology/theory, the on paper Bard, that it's going to fill a different type of support role. Is that where you are aiming for Bard?"

    Joppa said: "Yup, definitely. Very support heavy. They would probably fit into the Control archetype in terms of the kind of crowd control capabilities they are going to have. And interestingly enough the Necromancer will as well."

    Minus said: "That was my next question. So you jumped right into that. So both Support classes. So Enchanter, Necro, Bard... what are the ideological differences in the way they are going to Support that you can kind of invision?"

    Joppa said: "When I said the Necro as well' I was speaking to the Control and not necessarily to the Support. The Necro is going to be more of, like the Dire Lord, sort of a selfish class. Which I think is kind of what we would expect. Not to say that there is not going to be some support or utility orientated abilities, which they absolutely will have. So you can kind of put the Necro in the... there are still some DPS elements to that class as well and I would say even more so than the Bard for sure in terms of like their ability to do damage. Especially if we are talking about undead and other types of entities, I'd like to see it extend beyond undead."

    The Bard... one of the things we love about the bard is the idea of just this very... it doesn't matter what group it is, it doesn't matter what class make up, the bard is just good to have. They are able to benefit just about any type of class and any type of gameplay element. Ultimately that's where the 'Jack of all Trades' kind of idea came from, because they certainly didn't feel like the 'Jack of all Trades' in EQ in terms of like; they can't heal very well, there are certain things they can't do very well. But what they could do very well is fit and adapt and kind of morph into this kind of perfectly fitting enhancer. And I don't mean that to be a disparaging thing because those were one of my favorite classes, and when I say enhancer or amplifier, it gets pretty powerful when you are able to enhance your group and debuff pretty heavily as well and control. They are going to be a very..."
       then he was inturrupted by Minus.


    So, while Necromancer will likely have more 'Crowd Control' than the average Damage classes, they are not going to fit the 'Support' Archetype in the Quadternity. They will still likely be a Damage class, with their utility leaning more towards 'Control' type abilities rather than helpful buffs.

    • 2748 posts
    September 8, 2020 12:36 PM PDT

    Yeah, I am unconvinced by that blurb that they are going to be DPS and not still CC/Support. All I see is they will be more DPS than bard/enchanter and that their capability to support likely relies in some way on their damage. 

    • 336 posts
    September 8, 2020 1:05 PM PDT
    Necros are already masters of corpse control, so I think crowd control will be an interesting variation. Of course, it's quite possible that they will be mostly DPS and will only really shine in the CC role when fighting undead.
    • 552 posts
    September 10, 2020 9:32 PM PDT

    Iksar said: "Yeah, I am unconvinced by that blurb that they are going to be DPS and not still CC/Support."

    This IS the Blurb where people got the assumption that Necro's were going to be a CC/Support class. As far as I know there is NO OTHER mention of Necromancers details by VR. So unless you have links to something I've missed where they say anything about Necromancers being CC/Support, then this is the only Beans on Necromancers that we have.

    All I am pointing out is that people have been making assumptions without actually paying attention to what was actually said.

    • 72 posts
    September 11, 2020 3:31 AM PDT

    GoofyWarriorGuy said:

    Iksar said: "Yeah, I am unconvinced by that blurb that they are going to be DPS and not still CC/Support."

    This IS the Blurb where people got the assumption that Necro's were going to be a CC/Support class. As far as I know there is NO OTHER mention of Necromancers details by VR. So unless you have links to something I've missed where they say anything about Necromancers being CC/Support, then this is the only Beans on Necromancers that we have.

    All I am pointing out is that people have been making assumptions without actually paying attention to what was actually said.

     

    After reading that "blurb", i read the rest of the text in Ricks voice ... 

    Im not sure, if i understand you correctly, but i think, you have a problem with the "support"-part of "CC/Support", right? If that is true, the interview you posted mentioned, that necro will be at least a bit focused on CC. The Enchanters role  is now "Support", so i guess CC and support are considered to be the same (or at least very similar, or CC is a subset of support). 

    I agree though, that the term "CC/support" is confusing, since it gives the impression that these are two different roles, and not the same/subset.

    Not sure if that makes sense or if it answers your question though :D I tried my best ;)

    • 2748 posts
    September 11, 2020 10:21 AM PDT

    GoofyWarriorGuy said:

    Iksar said: "Yeah, I am unconvinced by that blurb that they are going to be DPS and not still CC/Support."

    This IS the Blurb where people got the assumption that Necro's were going to be a CC/Support class. As far as I know there is NO OTHER mention of Necromancers details by VR. So unless you have links to something I've missed where they say anything about Necromancers being CC/Support, then this is the only Beans on Necromancers that we have.

    All I am pointing out is that people have been making assumptions without actually paying attention to what was actually said.

    He literally said they fall into the CC/Support archetype of the Quaternity. Less emphasis on the support portion especially compared to bard, likening them to something similar to how direlords are more "selfish" dps heavy tanks. Necro are a more selfish DPS/debuff heavy CC/Support role class. 

    • 552 posts
    September 12, 2020 7:52 AM PDT

    Part of this confusion really seems to stem from the fact that the new website has moved away from a 'Control' Archetype and instead just lists Enchanters as a 'Support' Group Role. So Joppa specifically pointing out that Necro's are NOT a Support class in the same way that the Bard will be, but only similar in the Control aspects, this causes the questions of which 'Group Role' the Necromancer will actually be listed as.

    You are correct that his wording does basically say "Bards will be a Control Archetype... and Necromancers as well" but he then says "I meant they are the same in regards to control and not in regards to Support".

    Since this interview was done recently (only ~6 months ago) it's likely that Joppa already had in mind the New(ish) mindset of 'Support' as a Group Role rather than 'Crowd Control' as a Group Role which is why I suggest that we can't assume that Necromancers will be a Support rather than a Damage class. It all really depends on if VR's vision of the Quadternity is that ALL CC is Support but not all Support is CC.

    Hopefully if we do get more Beans in the future regarding Necromancers they will create some more transparency on how VR really considers them in regards to this 'Group Role' as it's listed on the new Class pages.

    • 131 posts
    September 14, 2020 5:51 AM PDT

    I am more than interested in the necro that Joppa descibed... Bring on the age of the necro =)... dead cc theme yes pls.... =)

    • 71 posts
    September 15, 2020 7:16 AM PDT

    I can live with a CC/DPS class, I like the way he is talking about it.  Reminds me of EQ Necro, support, dps, CC that is more selfish.  I just really hope they give is a permenant pet and not temp pets that poof after 30 seconds or so, I find part of the draw for a necro for me is pet management.

    • 419 posts
    September 18, 2020 12:12 AM PDT
    There is a lot that can be said, but I just wanted to quickly suggest --

    Why grasping hands? Are we imagining the necro uses dark magic to manifest skeletal hands, or a bone cage, out of nothing? Or do we imagine there are buried bones literally everywhere in the world the necro can manipulate? Or does the necro throw out a piece of bone and then magically transfigure it into hands for style? Is it because the necro is just trying to scare their enemy with skeleton hands? Or do we just freaking like skeleton hands grasping out of the earth, and it doesn't really matter?

    I ask because this particular spell has been a kind of pet peeve of mine. Maybe the necro casts spells like Dr. Strange, and some of them just happen to be materializing bone hands that hold enemies from the earth. I tend to want to think of necros as just having more control over all that is related with death, but I can see now some necro spells being more like Dr. Strange spells in that they are unique creations of a powerful (and recorded) mage of the past.

    Alright, well - sorry for the long thought process here. As is evident, I enjoy the kind of roleplaying logic in these games. Excited for the prospect of CC/DPS though, that is pretty ideal!
    • 136 posts
    October 13, 2020 10:57 AM PDT

    If the necro is going to be a CC class, then...

     

    We'll need a Defiler class, master of decay, for DoT-based gameplay.

    • 140 posts
    November 6, 2020 9:40 PM PST

    bobwinner said:

    If the necro is going to be a CC class, then...

     

    We'll need a Defiler class, master of decay, for DoT-based gameplay.

    I don't honestly think we will get one. Considering the Dire Lord doesn't exist as in EQ1 unlike the other classes (which are almost identical), I think it's no coincidence the necro will not be the same as previous. In the same way I believe we won't get a traditional shadow knight, I don't think we will get the necro we want. I wonder how much of that is legal, considering no one else has seemingly decided to make a "shadow knight" and instead always tried to make something "more unique".

    It's just far too early to tell what they intend to do here. There are already so many classes and traditionally Shaman / Necro have always revolved around poison and disease.

    Also, I think another strong contender for not getting one is ensuring no class is so capable they can solo indefinitely on their own. The necro in EQ1 always could.


    This post was edited by Rogue at November 6, 2020 9:41 PM PST
    • 1243 posts
    December 3, 2020 8:09 AM PST

    Grandpappy Feyshtey mode:

    Back in the old days of EQ there was certainly an aspect of Necros where they could serve reasonably well in a CC role, *IF* what they were trying to control were undead. And this makes perfect sense. Well, that and being able to root adds, but that was available to many classes.  Necros also were a broadly utilitarian class, able to provide support both direct and indirect aid in a few ways. And again, this made sense in the context of Necromancy because the it was always a manipulaton of the balance of life energy between two entities, mostly stealing it from one and redirecting to another. 

    But where necromancers have always held sway in every fantasy setting I've ever experienced or read has been the reanimation of the dead for the purposes of wreaking havoc. And usually for purposes of gaining personal power. They're never subtle, and they are rarely loved. They are by their nature somewhat (if not wholly) outcast, and never seen as protectors. 

    I'm trying to picture a backstory that allows for the outcast necromacer to serve primarily as a protector. Which is effectively what a CC class is. And I'm finding it exceedingly difficult to wrap my head around enjoying such a paradoxical role. 


    This post was edited by Feyshtey at December 3, 2020 8:19 AM PST
    • 815 posts
    December 3, 2020 10:44 AM PST

    Feyshtey said:

    And I'm finding it exceedingly difficult to wrap my head around enjoying such a paradoxical role. 

    The perfect answer to your comment comes from The Red Queen in 'Through the Looking Glass':

    "I daresay you haven't had much practice,' said the Queen. 'When I was your age, I always did it for half-an-hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast."

    Just keep practicing. It'll grow on ya :D

    • 2748 posts
    December 3, 2020 11:32 AM PST

    Feyshtey said:

    I'm trying to picture a backstory that allows for the outcast necromacer to serve primarily as a protector. Which is effectively what a CC class is. And I'm finding it exceedingly difficult to wrap my head around enjoying such a paradoxical role. 

    CC isn't primarily a protector. They are controllers, manipulators, those who bend reality and the things within it to their will. Which is very fitting for a necromancer. 

    • 96 posts
    December 3, 2020 4:27 PM PST

    So now my Necro will be names Yagami and keep yelling "All according to keikaku!"

    • 1243 posts
    December 4, 2020 11:35 AM PST

    Iksar said:

    Feyshtey said:

    I'm trying to picture a backstory that allows for the outcast necromacer to serve primarily as a protector. Which is effectively what a CC class is. And I'm finding it exceedingly difficult to wrap my head around enjoying such a paradoxical role. 

    CC isn't primarily a protector. They are controllers, manipulators, those who bend reality and the things within it to their will. Which is very fitting for a necromancer. 

    After a little more thought, maybe protector isn't the right way to look at CC classes. Instead,  rather a chaos manager.  A mayhem coordinator. A calamity choreographer. I'm not sold, but I'm warming slightly.


    This post was edited by Feyshtey at December 4, 2020 11:37 AM PST
    • 948 posts
    December 7, 2020 6:51 AM PST

    I'm really excited to see how the Necro comes out.  In EQ they were super support role in group content with inefficient damage for short duration fights and otherwise a soft CC using fearkiting and short duration hard CC mez on a long cooldown.  I think switching up their role to be more of a hard CC would be much more beneficial in a group-centric game.  I think it would be pretty sweet to have different types of fears - paralyzing, immobilizing, fleeing, heart stoping, paranoia inducing (lowering offensive abilities but increasing defensive) there could be so many.  Maybe combinations with the ENC that they can inflict phantasmal/nightmarish horrors on a target that is mesmerized in a way to damage mez'd targets without breaking the mez... so much they can do.  And I hope their pets (assuming they are a pet class) are more akin to EQ2 pets and not just tiny skeleton, large skeleton, red skeleton, spectre, large red skeleton, blue skeleton... etc lol.  Get some abominations, zombies, wights, ghasts, break out the D&D monster manual!  :)  


    This post was edited by Darch at December 7, 2020 6:55 AM PST
    • 1296 posts
    December 17, 2020 4:47 AM PST

    Traditionally Necro was the ultimate pet class, at least in D&D.  Raising and controlling undead took a huge percentage of your resources and character build to do so well and safely (for you).  Necros often had a few save or die type spells but were otherwise dependent on their minions for damage.  A necro puts the Crowd in crowd control. 

    As far as CC being a protector role think less Gryffendor and more Slytherin.  Necro's want to control when and where things die, in the most profitable way for them.  I could see some form of trapped soul or pooled death energy that is used to create temporary summons that have some building effectiveness as time goes and more death energy is collected.  Possibly even trapping a creature near death but not officially dead and using it as a battery to fuel more control abilities.  Necro could start the fight on the weaker side but build to be a powerhouse by the end of the battle as more death continues to fuel its abilities so it is less reliant on mana.

    It's support mechanics could all follow the axiom of "Power at a Cost".  Short bursts of power with a lingering debuff.

    • 1738 posts
    January 10, 2021 11:52 PM PST

    I can picture necro related CC abilities.  It can make sense in the right context.

    I mean, from a general design perspective reanimating a corpse is a lot like charming a mob and paralysis is basically a necro mez. AOE paralysis necros?

    We haven't seen this mechanic yet but, VR seems to really like the wall mechanic being used by a few classes (clerics, summoner ...another i forget).  I could see them coming up with some necro based magical barrier to aid with crowd control/keep some mobs out etc.

     


    This post was edited by philo at January 11, 2021 12:49 AM PST