I like the idea that anyone can wear anything, with consequences that make sense : bonus and malus depending on Class/Armor combination.
And the further away you get from your "natural" armor type, the greater the bonus/malus gets.
Examples, consider those bonus/malus as wearing a whole set of armor type :
Warrior's "best fit" armor is Plate Armor.
a Warrior using Plate Armor set gets high AC, without negative consequences because it fits the class.
a Warrior using Mail Armor set gets less AC, but gains +10% Dodge chance and +5% Haste, because it's lighter than Plate.
a Warrior using Leather Armor set gets even less AC, but gains +20% Dodge chance and +10% Haste, because it's even lighter.
a Warrior using Cloth Armor set gets ridiculously low AC, but gains +30% Dodge chance and +20% Haste, because their movements are not hindered at all.
Wizard's "best fit" armor is Cloth Armor.
a Wizard using Cloth Armor set gets 100% casting speed, without negative consequences because it fits the class.
a Wizard using Leather Armor set gets -10% casting speed, but gains the Leather AC mitigation.
a Wizard using Mail Armor set gets -20% casting speed and -5% movement speed, but gains the Mail AC mitigation.
a Caster using Plate Armor set gets -30% casting speed and -10% movement speed, but gains the Plate AC mitigation.
These are just examples, but there could be much more detailed bonus/malus.
The general idea is to give players additional choices in customizing their character build.
bobwinner said:I like the idea that anyone can wear anything, with consequences that make sense : bonus and malus depending on Class/Armor combination.
Warrior's "best fit" armor is Plate Armor.
a Warrior using Plate Armor set gets high AC, without negative consequences because it fits the class.
a Warrior using Mail Armor set gets less AC, but gains +10% Dodge chance and +5% Haste, because it's lighter than Plate.
a Warrior using Leather Armor set gets even less AC, but gains +20% Dodge chance and +10% Haste, because it's even lighter.
a Warrior using Cloth Armor set gets ridiculously low AC, but gains +30% Dodge chance and +20% Haste, because their movements are not hindered at all.
This is usually the case in the form of the stats that is applied to armor types. Mail usually has a few of it's stats more in the agi/dex range and leather usually has even more in those area's.
Does armor has weight associated with it to counter climbing endurance? If so the lighter armor should have less weight so longer endurance.
Climbing in full plate, would be much harder then in leather or cloth. I don't know how it works until I get in and play a bit.
But having some weight reduction bags to put your armor into while climbing would be handy.
I like that there are many types. It makes sense.
Cloth (Enchanter, Summoner, Wizard)
Light Leather (Monk, Druid)
Heavy Leather (Rogue, Shaman)
Light Chain (Ranger)
Heavy Chain (Dire Lord)
Light Plate (Cleric)
Heavy Plate (Paladin, Warrior)
What *doesn't* then make sense, though, is, if the distinction of sub-types is being made presumably because the differences are somehow 'meaningful' how come classes can wear a certain type and *anything* else considered 'below' them?
I'm really not sure that, just because a class is trained to fight in Heavy Plate, they should automatically know how to effectively defend themselves fighting in cloth or even leather or chain. Maybe not even in Light Plate.
To me it's weird they are so specific about the weapon types that kind be used but the armor types are just a 'heirarchy'. I know that weapons are considered more of an 'active' tool, but the way the armor is treated feels like weapons shouldn't be so specific. Like, if I am fine in cloth because I'm trained in Heavy Plate, why aren't I fine with a dagger if I'm trained with a sword?
Also, realism aside, gameplay-wise caster classes will get to roll on a tiny proportion of caster loot and be rolling against two other cloth-using classes. Paladins and Warrior will get to roll on anything and only against each other on their 'top' tier (and probably not much then, because they will prize quite different stats).
I like the idea of classes having penalties and if the game is going to arrange the armor in some kind of order, then the 'distance' in that order should maybe give the penalty.
If you are trained in Heavy Plate, then Light Plate is -1. Heavy Leather is -4 and cloth is -6.
Might mitigate the weird realism and the looting disparity.
I think the armor types that we see reflected on the website currently may still be refined before launch. While it makes sense on paper to have so many different item types, it's also going to be difficult for the team to manage from an itemization perspective (in my opinion). I think they may end up streamlining a bit. This is especially true since each class relies on several different attributes, and not only one or two. Depending on how the math works out, you may see things like tanks wearing leather pieces with lower AC in order to get higher attribute boosts. This isn't necessarily a bad thing but it erodes the value of having the different armor types and restrictions.
One thing that VR could do here as a balancing mechanism is to implement Armor skills, in the same way that they will (probably) implement Weapon skills. Moving and fighting while wearing armor - even leather armor - is different than moving and fighting in normal clothing, and will tire you out more quickly or even make it hard for you to do some things (like climbing or swimming) unless you have gotten used to it. Given that baseline, VR could set up skills for different armor types (light, medium, heavy) that govern the effectiveness of armor and help sort of steer classes to their preferred armor types.
This is all conjecture of course, but I wouldn't be surprised to see it happen.
disposalist said: What *doesn't* then make sense, though, is, if the distinction of sub-types is being made presumably because the differences are somehow 'meaningful' how come classes can wear a certain type and *anything* else considered 'below' them?I'm really not sure that, just because a class is trained to fight in Heavy Plate, they should automatically know how to effectively defend themselves fighting in cloth or even leather or chain. Maybe not even in Light Plate.
To me it's weird they are so specific about the weapon types that kind be used but the armor types are just a 'heirarchy'. I know that weapons are considered more of an 'active' tool, but the way the armor is treated feels like weapons shouldn't be so specific. Like, if I am fine in cloth because I'm trained in Heavy Plate, why aren't I fine with a dagger if I'm trained with a sword?
While there might be some subtle differences, the actual weight of the armor and thus how much it slows one down has always seemed to me to be the major - if not only - real restriction to armor use in real life. And that is what it has seemed to be in most games I've played. So if you are strong enough to run and jump and wrestle in Plate, having lighter armor really shouldn't interfere with you at all.
As far as the comparison to weapons use, training your skill in a weapon is pretty much like any martial art. You repeat the same move over and over again until it becomes a reflex because a reflex is faster than a thought-out movement. And even though a sword very much resembles a big knife, the actual physical movements you make when you strike and block are NOT the same movements from one to the other. So a sword-using Warrior who picks up a Dagger can certainly fight with it, but won't be at nearly the same speed or precision with it as with the weapon he trained with for 1000 hours.
disposalist said: Also, realism aside, gameplay-wise caster classes will get to roll on a tiny proportion of caster loot and be rolling against two other cloth-using classes. Paladins and Warrior will get to roll on anything and only against each other on their 'top' tier (and probably not much then, because they will prize quite different stats).
I certainly expect the loot tables to balanced in a percentage fashion to the number of different classes that can use a type of armor. So if more classes can use a certain type, then there will be more total number of drops of that type. Which I.M.O. might well be more frustrating for those who need more specialized armor as they will not even SEE that many pieces that work for them, whereas a caster might get to roll on many items of cloth armor, and at least have a much better education about the range of possible stats and styles that can be found on such armor.
And realistically, while a tank will certainly wear a piece of leather if it's all he's got, I can't see him rolling on a piece of cloth or even leather once he has a piece of mail or plate to use. Don't forget, the cost to the tank isn't just the reduction of armor class to have that particular stat bonus, but the loss of the bonus on the piece he gives up, that likely helps his 1st or 2nd most important attributes in order to get the bonus to a tertiary attribute.
I admit a heavy armor user might be total jerk and roll on anything he can, just for the value of it. But considering what I've seen in other games as the official 'vendor price' for selling armor, lower tier armor isn't likely to be very valuable as income generation once a player is past his first few levels.
And if we're lucky, VR might well put a 'lower limit' into the 'need before greed' system to restrict the 'need' function to only the max tier that a character can -or is- wearing.
Ok im just going to say it... Keep everything the same but dont let a warrior wear anything lower then plate and so on and so fourth for all classes... Think of the tier you are in as fixed.. This way if the meta of the game prefers all tanks to wear cloth there isnt disputes on weither or not the wizard or warrior gets said items.. And when you look at all classes and compair what they can use this way it all makes sence.. It will be way easier to randomize loot becouse there isnt the chance for a huge demand in cloth armor and no demand in plate.... Now i dont think that will be the exact case on how it plays out where there is no demand for plate and lots for cloth but giving people the option to downgrade will without a doubt raise the demand for tiers below plate unless 100% warriors and pallys never use non plate and the lower the tier the higher the demand thats just how probability and math work. and then at that point why not just lock it so you dont have this impending varable looming over you...
disposalist said:I like that there are many types. It makes sense.
Cloth (Enchanter, Summoner, Wizard)
Light Leather (Monk, Druid)
Heavy Leather (Rogue, Shaman)
Light Chain (Ranger)
Heavy Chain (Dire Lord)
Light Plate (Cleric)
Heavy Plate (Paladin, Warrior)
Looking at this list if you were on a raid that dropped 1heavy chain 1heavy leather and 1 cloth if the tiers were locked you would get this
Heavy chain - Direlord
Heavy leather - rogue shaman
Cloth - enchanter summoner wizard
Them classes will all bid on the loot however your guild does it and boom easy now imagine a meta where warriors would love all them pieces... Lets say one is a chest one leggs one boots and not just warriors all the classes that could use them out want it
It would be madness
Tailor the gear to the classes and keep the tier locked
Edit. The one thing i would do using my method is maybe give cloth 1 more subtype so for example
Elemental wraps - wizard summoner
Ethernal coverings - enchanter necromancer
The cloth should be done like this to make it compairable to other classes/tiers when thinking of competition. But then again dont do this if someone at pantheon knows that the population of them classes wouldnt justify a second tier but my personal guess is it would
In every game I have played, any char could wear any 'lower' tier than their max tier. That doesn't mean it HAS to be this way. But my point is that I have never found it to be a problem. I really don't think VR is going to manage to implement such a longstanding system in a way that now causes a problem.
I understand the appeal of theorycrafting while impatiently waiting to play the game. But sheesh, this thread seems to be working hard to find potential problems in something that has worked quite well for ages.
Jothany said:In every game I have played, any char could wear any 'lower' tier than their max tier. That doesn't mean it HAS to be this way. But my point is that I have never found it to be a problem. I really don't think VR is going to manage to implement such a longstanding system in a way that now causes a problem.
I understand the appeal of theorycrafting while impatiently waiting to play the game. But sheesh, this thread seems to be working hard to find potential problems in something that has worked quite well for ages.
It worked becouse they would put class requirements on gear so not everybody could use which is a different way of doing what i am proposing. But since im curious what game has no restrictions on armor as in class requirements, stat requirements, or type requirements? Well one that has a class based system and not a classless system like skyrim or dark souls there is a reason for it
I'd be pretty disappointed if all classes were locked to a specific armor type entirely. I really don't see the reason to limit something like warriors to only plate other than people who can't stand the idea that in some fringe cases that warrior might go after some other armor piece. Really don't want to see highly curated stats on equipment clearly tailored toward specific classes (or just straight up class specific armor being common), so sick of that in modern MMOs.
In the old days it didn't matter anyway, we'd all /roll regardless of what dropped and for whom.
BamBam said: Im not really a fan of casters in plate, i mainly wanted to increase options for classes within the armor category, and make design time faster. It will be a hurdle for design team, on every expancion to make so many different looks.
But back to bam bams real point i agree it can be plate chain leather cloth with there archtypes in it like eq1 but either lock it or put class requirements on raid gear thats all im saying
Iksar said:I'd be pretty disappointed if all classes were locked to a specific armor type entirely. I really don't see the reason to limit something like warriors to only plate other than people who can't stand the idea that in some fringe cases that warrior might go after some other armor piece. Really don't want to see highly curated stats on equipment clearly tailored toward specific classes (or just straight up class specific armor being common), so sick of that in modern MMOs.
In the old days it didn't matter anyway, we'd all /roll regardless of what dropped and for whom.
Look that isnt just modern mmos it is just what works in a item randomization on raid targets standpoint. Eq1 modern mmo? Armor pieces in raid tier HAVE to be this way to ensure loot over time hits all classes if you do 5 bosses 20times ect. Its math your not special no one cares about your feelings thats just facts
Edit : rings necks ect is where the all all gear belongs
Thugstomp said:Look that isnt just modern mmos it is just what works in a item randomization on raid targets standpoint. Eq1 modern mmo? Armor pieces in raid tier HAVE to be this way to ensure loot over time hits all classes if you do 5 bosses 20times ect. Its math your not special no one cares about your feelings thats just facts
Edit : rings necks ect is where the all all gear belongs
Class specific gear was rare in EQ, the majority of equipment in the game was not (single) class specific and someone like a warrior could use most armors from lower defense tiers.
Not seeing the argument it HAS to be that way to ensure loot hits all classes. The less restricted individual items/equipment are the MORE loot hits all classes because more people have access/can find use. If someone is in a raiding guild where they are giving cloth armor to the warrior then I think that is a player issue and they should find a new guild.
Nanfoodle said:I think when its says a class can wear Plate, that class will be able to wear all types under that, chain, leather and cloth. I would be shocked if thats not the case because thats how it was persented on the old site.
That is the assumption I would agree, but that’s not what is stated, so I think there needs to be some clarification From VR here. Is the armour type listed the “maximum” type the class can use, or the ONLY type the class can use?
Iksar said:Thugstomp said:Look that isnt just modern mmos it is just what works in a item randomization on raid targets standpoint. Eq1 modern mmo? Armor pieces in raid tier HAVE to be this way to ensure loot over time hits all classes if you do 5 bosses 20times ect. Its math your not special no one cares about your feelings thats just facts
Edit : rings necks ect is where the all all gear belongs
Class specific gear was rare in EQ, the majority of equipment in the game was not (single) class specific and someone like a warrior could use most armors from lower defense tiers.
Not seeing the argument it HAS to be that way to ensure loot hits all classes. The less restricted individual items/equipment are the MORE loot hits all classes because more people have access/can find use.
Your only seeing one side of the coin. Everything you said is correct but also opens up thr door for pieces of gear to be worthless becouse something else is better well now more classes want the better item so thats more time you will have to raid that boss to gear a guild and to complicate things that piece of gear the meta deemed worthless is apart of the lootpool so now becouse of that as well you will need to raid morr to gear up your guild... Inefficient
Edit : i say all this while never being a meta player i find my own meta if it is the same as the meta cool if i find my own way cool but alot of people wont do that