Yesterday, Joppa stopped by the unofficial Discord server for Pantheon and shared what the team is leaning towards for Pantheon's Death Penalty. Here is what he said:
When you die:
- Return to your bind spot
- Lose X% of current experience towards next level
- Large durability hit to worn equipment (if we implement durability, which we probably will)
- Respawn with the gear you were wearing when you died still equipped.
- All general inventory remains on corpse, must be looted to retrieve. This includes money.
- Resurrection abilities will return an amount of lost exp. All priest classes will boast the same exp return for their rezzes.
Obviously, things can still change between now and launch but there are a lot of implications to all of this and it is probably worthy of discussion. Since no one else created a thread yet, I figured I would get that started.
PS: If you are a Crafter or even just want to talk about durability and how crafters are involved, there is a thread specifically for that in the Crafting section: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/12175/crafter-s-roundtable-death-durability-and-repairs/view/post_id/237538
The FAQ on the current website has been stale for a while. I think VR has some technical challenges with updating that website and that's a big reason why they've been working on a new one, but that's really just my impression from when they've talked about it on streams.
I know some of this is stuff the community has talked around in the past but I don't think we've seen official statements in the past that were this specific. The last post I remember from a VR person about what they were thinking was brad saying it would be somewhere between EQ and Vanguard, years ago. Maybe I'm forgetting one though.
vjek said:Honestly, I'm a bit confused..
Why didn't VR just update the FAQ with this previously released years old information?
That's kind of the whole point of an FAQ.
Why did he post it on a "unofficial Discord server for Pantheon" when he has an offical web site for such things. I don't mind posting it on both, but this scattered arround info is wrong.
Zorkon said:Why did he post it on a "unofficial Discord server for Pantheon" when he has an offical web site for such things. I don't mind posting it on both, but this scattered arround info is wrong.
It's not like he intentionally went to Discord and posted the information as some sort of reveal. This information about the death penalty was only known to VIP's and was accidentally shared with non-VIP's (in an unofficial channel) by a VIP community member. The post was moderated/removed due to the nature of the material, but by that point, a bunch of people had already read the information and began talking about it. The cat was out of the bag but it was still being referred to as "a leak" and players were questioning the validity. The channel was quite chaotic at the time, with dozens of posters chiming in and talking about this newly realized (but recently removed) information. Rather than letting a dozen new conspiracy theories emerge of what was actually stated, Joppa chimed in with the following:
"Let's not call it a leak anymore, let's call it public knowledge now." He then linked the same information that Nephele shared in the OP. It appeared to be more of a "putting out a fire and adding some clarity" situation than an intended announcement.
If durability exists in Pantheon will function the same as we have seen in other games? Having a counter like 15/60, and then if durability reaches 0 our chatacter loses bonuses from that item.
Might the items break instead of just losing a bonus in Pantheon? Is that too hardcore? Maybe we might have to do a quest to repair a magical item that has broken? Just speculating while waiting for alpha testing :)
This just about ruined all hope for a "next level" MMO. it's WoW 2.0 , not "the next mmo you've been waiting for".
EQ1 was horribly rough on death because everyone was on dial up (mostly) and dropped packets / game link dead was a constant issue with the servers and local players. the randon disconnect and death is NOT nearly as much of an issue - time to stop panding to the lowest common denominator makes that game lowest common denominator.
one of the things about EQ1 was (up to PoP) : you grouped with level 30+, you KNEW you had good players with you who weren't inconsiderate jerks (for the most part).
These plans make it so that no matter how bad you suck, you still win.
There so many incredible things wrong with the below
- Lose X% of current experience towards next level
Fear of death greatly lessened. and even worse at max level, you can just run around lower levels training everyone. The respect for raiding and raiders and raid loot = out the window, for me at least - not like you lost levels.
- Large durability hit to worn equipment (if we implement durability, which we probably will)
Like in WoW - where worst case you don't get the bonus stats, but never, ever lose gear ? unless it's a durability system like Dark age of camelet where after 1-2 years, you might have to replace your gear (hello crafters = valuable). Laughable penalty. LAUGHABLE. been there done that, and LOL.
- Respawn with the gear you were wearing when you died still equipped. What happened to the planned need of backup gear in the bank ???
go to a dungeon, equip some cheap bags, and when you wipe and die, no fear, no revenge, no groups required , no respect for the environment that ...gives you some exp debt and costs a bit of gold WoW style for repairs - laughable again.
EQ1 did this a few years into the game, levle 1-6 = respawn with gear. that's fine.
The entire tenant of respect the possible dangers of your environment ? it will be the rare case where you bag an item, don't wear it for yourself or a friend, and NEED to go back for your body or rez. laughable.
For Raid mobs and attempt at raid mobs - a kick of your body to the zone (or some other group grave restoration place : for an in game money fee) is very appropriate and doesn't affect EVERYONE not raiding.
and then if you can invis / sneak - no fear of death, run in with no bags or money and go to town, never having earned the levels or experience you should have to seek out and explore new dungeons or named.
Bard and necro locate corpse,
necro or shadowknight coffin summon,
mage call of hero after you run deep in and get your corpse
Plus corsedrag from rogues, monks, invis to undead or invis classes, higher level character
another group to escort you back to your corpse.
caster classes with pets in the group to tank while you carefully get back to your corpse / group wipe.
letting you keep your weapon only after death to do dps to help the group fight back. Mana from casters is there.
An average recover from a group wipe in EQ1 was 15-20 minutes to get to the dungeon, and 30 minutes to fight back. and that's without external help, asking for help / giving help to a wiped group was very engaging, it's what made EQ1 social and fun - this removed all sense of that.
Terrible ideas Chris. Simply Gawd aweful terrible. We have ways to get corpses back, if you don't make them required 50+ (but around level 15+) then the player base can be friendly and challenged at the same time without quitting the game.
While I have faith that VR knows what they're doing, I will definitely miss naked corpse runs. Naked corpse runs in EQ1 were some of the most exciting times for me. A naked corpse run just screamed danger and gave a huge incentive to not just randomly run into an encounter. I'm glad some items will at least be left on your corpse to make the run necessary, but having your armor on you, you just kind of lose that danger factor in the run back. Also, I'm wondering how that would make sense from a story standpoint, that you lose your inventory but keep your armor? Is your armor bound to your soul then? I realise it doesn't have to make sense though.
Edit: They could also be giving the character their armor after death so that they would physically be able to get to their corpse, since there will be a lot of atmospheric barriers after all.
Zorkon said:Why did he post it on a "unofficial Discord server for Pantheon" when he has an offical web site for such things. I don't mind posting it on both, but this scattered arround info is wrong.
Yes, that's true.
Also, if naked corpse runs aren't in Pantheon, then deleveling/exp-loss should be quite significant enough so there is more incentive in retrieving your corpse than just for a few items and copperz not in the bank - duh! Especially since all priest-type classes will be able to give back the same amount of experience from rez. There needs to be a compromise somewhere like this. We shall see.
Perhaps this is an okay compromise between naked CR supporters (I lean towards difficult EQ vanilla naked) and respawn in a graveyard with all items supporters from past threads.
I don't believe it will be too often that you simply abandon your bags, consumables, extra swap out gear for diff things, crafting mats, recent loot and whatever trade coin you walk around with + the exp loss.
This appeases those whom think fighting back naked is too much, but loses social interaction opportunities needing help. As has been said many times in many threads there are a myriad of ways to do the naked CR, corpse dragging classes like rogue stealth, monk FD, wiz invis, necro summon etc. Actually fighting back naked is not usually the way it goes, you invis everyone back down or whatever.
It is unfortunate that they started at such a middle ground because it is difficult to walk that back.
Exp loss on the other hand is easier to adjust so hopefully it is a good sting that really makes you want a rez at mid to high levels.
Edit: However I do see the concern for the cheese CR in raid zones and stuff, but this also happens with naked CR because you have nothing to lose except exp which is more a function of not losing levels than of being naked or geared.
oneADseven said:Zorkon said:Why did he post it on a "unofficial Discord server for Pantheon" when he has an offical web site for such things. I don't mind posting it on both, but this scattered arround info is wrong.
It's not like he intentionally went to Discord and posted the information as some sort of reveal. This information about the death penalty was only known to VIP's and was accidentally shared with non-VIP's (in an unofficial channel) by a VIP community member. The post was moderated/removed due to the nature of the material, but by that point, a bunch of people had already read the information and began talking about it. The cat was out of the bag but it was still being referred to as "a leak" and players were questioning the validity. The channel was quite chaotic at the time, with dozens of posters chiming in and talking about this newly realized (but recently removed) information. Rather than letting a dozen new conspiracy theories emerge of what was actually stated, Joppa chimed in with the following:
"Let's not call it a leak anymore, let's call it public knowledge now." He then linked the same information that Nephele shared in the OP. It appeared to be more of a "putting out a fire and adding some clarity" situation than an intended announcement.
Thanks, that puts a little better light on the situation.
If chars are really going to spawn with their gear after death, then I'd think the experience loss from death would be quite significant enough that there would not only be great incentive but also that it would obviously be worth it to retrieve corpse for experience regain via cleric's rez. Again, there needs to be more compromise if chars are going to be respawning with their gear after death. Like - there should be more incentive in retrieving your corpse than just regaining a few copperz that weren't in the bank. Lol smh
This is certainly going to have pushback from the naked CR crowd, and I'm a supporter of naked CR, BUT it's not as bad as it could have been. I was really worried with other threads that it would be all items upon respawn.
This does beg some questions about corpse decay since the FAQ says you will never lose your items (I realize the FAQ is out dated).
I've been against durability because it always ends up being nothing to worry about after X levels. You simply stop caring about durability because the repair costs are trivial. Hopefully that is done right here. Also on the subject I would hope that when he said " Large durability hit" that it is like 25%-33% so you only get 3-4 deaths before naked, and that durability Lowers the stats from that gear at the same rate so 25% durability == 25% less effective stats from that item.
Syrif said:If chars are really going to spawn with their gear after death, then I'd think the experience loss from death would be quite significant enough that there would not only be great incentive but also that it would obviously be worth it to retrieve corpse for experience regain via cleric's rez. Again, there needs to be more compromise if chars are going to be respawning with their gear after death. Like - there should be more incentive in retrieving your corpse than just regaining a few copperz that weren't in the bank. Lol smh
This has been said a couple of times now in regards to the few cp not in the bank. If it is a dungeon that is wiping your group then it probably pays fairly well for your level. It's likely you either haven't gone in very far (learning curve) if you don't have a reasonable amount of $ which means easy CR regardless, or you are deep in and your coin purse is full and you want to retrieve that entire dungeon crawl worth of $ for the night.
I would argue that if you are going to a dangerous dungeon for your group/lvl that the loot from that dungeon would be on par with the risk. Would you then choose to swap out your best bags for your crap bags before going in order to limit your CR risk? Or would you bring your best bags in order to haul out as much loot as possible? Would you leave your best bags on a corpse? Same goes for potions and such. Would you bring your crappiest set of potions because you are afraid of the CR or would you bring your best so that you have a better chance against the content?
@generalreb You are just referring to dying in a raid. If this Pantheon is going to live up to the tenets, then people will be dying outside of raiding in this very immense and immersive world. We are talking about chars respawning with their gear on. If that is to be so, then there needs to be something like a significant penalty of experience loss for there to be worthy incentive in retrieving your corpse via the priest classes' "same exp recovery amount rez." Again, if chars are going to respawn with their gear, then there needs to be more compromise and incentive to retreiving your corpse. Only going to corpse to recover a few copperz and a magic potion and then pay to get your gear 'fixed' like WoW just isn't going to cut it imo. If chars are going to respawn with all their freakin gear on, then there needs to be more compromise like significant exp loss.
Titanias said:It was never fun waiting 30 to 60 minutes to loot your corpse so you could camp or play again. Or waiting days till your necro or clicky cleric could get on and give you your gear and exp back. That is something that will not be missed by me.
Thank you for proving my point! This is exactly why there needs to be more compromise. If you are going to spawn with all your gear on after death, then there should be a significant penalty such as deleveling/significant experience-loss. That's the penalty for not wanting to wait "30 minutes" to retrieve your corpse nor "waiting for a cleric" nor a druid nor a shaman in this case lol. You won't have to because you'll have all your gear. But, there needs to be a significant penalty for not wanting to get your corpse; just as significant as the incentive for those of us who make the effort and team-work in retrieving it.
Unofficial Discord server said:When you die:
- Return to your bind spot
- Lose X% of current experience towards next level
- Large durability hit to worn equipment (if we implement durability, which we probably will)
- Respawn with the gear you were wearing when you died still equipped.
- All general inventory remains on corpse, must be looted to retrieve. This includes money.
- Resurrection abilities will return an amount of lost exp. All priest classes will boast the same exp return for their rezzes.
This doesn't sound like much of a Death Penalty.
It's called: compromise aka riskVSreward. Respawning with all your worn gear after death is SIGNIFICANT. Fine, but then the death penalties need to be SIGNIFICANT as well. Such as risk of deleveling/significant exp-loss. Not just minor like in OP, but significant; that's literally COMPROMISE. Anyway, that's all.
Seems pretty straightforward.
I think respawning with gear, if there is no durability, is a bit OP. Having backup gear in the bank is a good reason to maintain a spare equipment (Brad was in favor of this).
An addition is I’d like to see a small amount of XP returned if the player returns to their corpse without a rez. This would be limited by a time window, like 3 hours (people always have the ability to choose not to return).
A question I have is if a player doesn’t rez/return to corpse, what happens to the corpse?
Thanks for sharing.