Forums » The Enchanter

Is Snare a CC mechanism?

    • 209 posts
    May 13, 2020 11:30 AM PDT

    Just as the title says, should Snare be apart of the Enchanters arsenal? I noticed from the "Shaman Clarity" post that Enc never had this in EQ. Should they in Pantheon?

    I personally think Snare would classify as CC. Limiting (or being in control of) how fast a mob can run away makes sense that ENC should get this ability.

    But maybe the definition of CC is complete immobilization (stuns, mez, root)?

     

     

    • 1219 posts
    May 13, 2020 3:55 PM PDT

    A quick survey tells me that Ranger, Summoner and Monk will all have something of a snare. So maybe it's just been set aside as a CC for the 'other' classes. I'm not sure I'd agree that Enchanter should have ALL the CC spells that exist in the game. Not sure that I'd argue it either, just ....not sure :)

    • 461 posts
    May 14, 2020 11:43 PM PDT

    In a short answer, no.

    While it can be used as a form of CC, this relies on having room to kite said target or being in an area where you could reliably fear it while snared without it aggroing other mobs or surrounding NPCs. The times this is possible is few and far between and in that sense, a run speed buff would operate similarly. That also brings up, what if there's multiples? Add to that, Pantheon AI and mob dynamics have them utilizing ranged combat far more liberally and capably than what we saw in Everquest. Snare and Root won't do much if that target can still do lethal damage at range. Add to that, some of us saw the stream in which mobs were able to wipe the group with PBAE (Point-Blank Area Effect) spells and even TAE (Targeted Area Effect) spells. To prevent this we have CC, Confuses/Charms, long term Silences, and PBAE Stuns. 

    Here's the main reason why it won't be viable in Pantheon: Duration. In Pantheon, given the few Snares we know of, each of them operate on a 6-12 second duration generally. This may be similar to their Melee Slows being reduced and why Fear is basically non-existent aside for Enchanter and a barely operable Warrior version, and to add to that why Roots are also low durations. They don't want overpowered abilities in the game like a ~3 minute and ~12 minute Snare (Snare and Ensnare). It trivialized content a bit too easily and made content relatively trivial for a classes that didn't need it, especially Druid.

    I wrote up a comprehensive breakdown on CC in totality last year or so. You may like it.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/PantheonMMO/comments/a4j1lk/crowd_control_in_pantheon/

    As for a Snare for Enchanter, again, it would be a short duration and going by that, why use that after what I stated above and if we have a host of other tools that are far better?


    This post was edited by Janus at May 15, 2020 11:22 PM PDT
    • 143 posts
    May 19, 2020 3:02 AM PDT

    I do not dislike for the Enchanter to have a snare but, I think it would be better if we could Charm a mob and that mob had a snare and use it... I just like the idea of casting spells from the mob I charm... and being able to use the mobs spells and my enchanter spells....I doubt that would happen but it sounds really fun to me....

     

     


    This post was edited by Nytman at May 19, 2020 3:30 AM PDT
    • 461 posts
    May 19, 2020 6:31 AM PDT

    Nytman said:

    I do not dislike for the Enchanter to have a snare but, I think it would be better if we could Charm a mob and that mob had a snare and use it... I just like the idea of casting spells from the mob I charm... and being able to use the mobs spells and my enchanter spells....I doubt that would happen but it sounds really fun to me....

    Yeah, that's one trick and I think that's what they're intending with Charm in this game. At least it was alluded to vaguely. That was in how Charm functions in that it allows you control over their abilities. That's been done before to include in EQ2 and other MMORPGs. There's another function that I alwways liked but was never really done at all in MMORPGs and the bits it was, it was done poorly and that's in Possession. You lose control of your character and take control of the NPC. The downside here is in how exploitative it is. You could just jump the mob off a cliff or something to get it far from the group. 

    I can think up of all the counters to that so it functions, but I don't think they're going that route nor would they.

    That leaves your description and it very well may be just that, control of your charmed pet's faculties. 

    • 4 posts
    May 31, 2020 7:38 AM PDT

    I'm sure there will be clickies in the game that have snare. With all the tools we will have for CC, I can't imagine a situation where you would choose snare. A clickie snare would be valuable if you were OOM and needed to slow a mob so you could escape.

    • 461 posts
    May 31, 2020 9:01 AM PDT

    Given their reluctance to have any useful snare in the game and by that measure, the overall importance of it as a tool, I personally don't think we'll see it as a 'clicky' of sorts. It would have to be rare or very difficult to obtain if they seem to emphasize how much they want to limit the function in this game comparative to others, i.e. EQ.

    • 1086 posts
    June 6, 2020 10:14 AM PDT

    Technically snare and roots are a types of "soft" Crowd Control because it is "controling" mobility, but in the case of the "Role" of Crowd Control, PRotF is categorizing CC as the ability to prevent a target from interacting with its environment at all or "hard CC".  Roots and snares would be ineffective against ranged targets or in severly confined areas where you couldn't move away from the target.   Other types of soft CC would be some of the abilities that immediately change an NPC's demeanor/aggression like Feign Death, Knight's Persuasion, Flash Bomb etc - but these are very situational (and typically only effective against NPCs) and wouldn't categorize the class' role as CC... so in opposition to that (to address the question), a class with access to Hard CC (Enchanter and Bard) shouldn't necessarily "need" access to a lesser form of CC;  Which would only give them more advantages over the other classes (and IMO, effectively neuter a lot of the other class' utility/usefulness).

    • 7 posts
    September 23, 2020 7:47 PM PDT

    I would have to agree with Darch. CC is not specific to Enchanter. What is specific to enchanter would be things that are enchanting. This would include mezmerization, charm, illusions, lull, and things of the mind. You could potentially argue that some form of snare could be of 'the mind', but when I generally think of snare, I instantly think about classes such as Shamans and Druids. I don't think it behooves any class to have every spell, or every ability, as that starts to homogenize and reduce the effectiveness, and overall variation between classes.

    • 630 posts
    September 29, 2020 7:02 AM PDT

    For those confused by 'Hard' or 'Soft' Crowd control... the normal definition is:

    Hard CC = Effects that take away control of your character in some form. Preventing you entirely from performing an action. Or causing the AI to choose which actions you take.

    Soft CC = Limit the effectiveness of your control of your character in some form. You can usually still perform actions but those actions could be limited, and certain actions may be locked out.

    So some examples

    Hard CC:
      Stun, Mesmerize, Sleep, Confuse, Fear, Charm, Banish, Polymorph, and Knock Back/Down/Up.

    Soft CC:
      Melee Slow, Casting Slow, Movement Slow (snare), Blind, Disarm, Silence, Cripple, Pacify, and Barriers (ie Walls).

    Root is sometimes considered Hard CC because it prevents movement, but sometimes people consider it Soft CC as it doesn't prevent you from any other actions and think of it more like an Ultimate Snare.

    Taunt is also sometimes considered a Hard CC because it takes your choice away and in some cases prevents you from controlling your character entirely (the AI uses your attacks and/or abilities for you), but sometimes is considered Soft CC as it can sometimes leave you control of all other choices other than who you can attack.

    Some terms that you may not know exactly what is meant:
       Confuse: This is an effect that causes your character to attack targets randomly, which could be an ally. Usually meaning the AI takes full control of all your choices while under the effect.
       Cripple: You can still move, but are prevented from using extra movement abilities such as Leaps, Teleports, Dashes, etc...

    • 856 posts
    October 21, 2020 8:36 PM PDT
    The risk as I see it is opening up the ridiculous power of fear kiting while also being ridiculously powerful with your arsenal of mez's. Presumably chanter will have a fear spell. Too OP, but a great opportunity for synergy with other classes
    • 107 posts
    December 11, 2020 11:19 AM PST

    Hokanu said: The risk as I see it is opening up the ridiculous power of fear kiting while also being ridiculously powerful with your arsenal of mez's. Presumably chanter will have a fear spell. Too OP, but a great opportunity for synergy with other classes

    I agree. Fear alone is a powerful CC spell. Fear kiting was a lot of fun in EQ, but required another class. I did it with a wizard a couple times. It often required mez or some other rom of CC because fear sends the mob in random directions often into other mobs that wind up killing your target or adding to the group you've aggroed. I don't see it as a enchanter spell. At higher levels you could get Journeyman Boots which when combined with fear allowed you to do a similar things.

    • 1086 posts
    January 14, 2021 6:38 PM PST

    Hokanu said: The risk as I see it is opening up the ridiculous power of fear kiting while also being ridiculously powerful with your arsenal of mez's. Presumably chanter will have a fear spell. Too OP, but a great opportunity for synergy with other classes


    An easy solution to this concern is having fear break on damage taken (like mez).  In a fight or flight situation, if you were fearful for your life and someone started slowly eating you while you were running, you would likely stop running or cowering and fight for your life.


    This post was edited by Darch at January 14, 2021 6:39 PM PST