Forums » The Paladin

Paladin might be getting a new race!

    • 494 posts
    March 5, 2020 6:52 PM PST

    Joppa confirmed (March 5th) that there were at least 2 changes coming to the class/race matrix - ONE we already know about, which is Archai Summoner. The other, this is purely specualation, but I think it will be Dark Myr for Paladin. It makes the most sense with lore (Paladins are vengeful clerics that drop the tome to pick up the Hammer) and the Dark Myr can already be Clerics.

    The downside are the racial passives, they are the absolute worst for the Paladin class. One thing we can still hope for, are killer racial actives.

    • 655 posts
    March 5, 2020 6:59 PM PST

    I guess I missed the Archai summoner bean.  When did that drop?

    • 954 posts
    March 5, 2020 7:07 PM PST

    Fragile said:

    Joppa confirmed (March 5th) that there were at least 2 changes coming to the class/race matrix - ONE we already know about, which is Archai Summoner. The other, this is purely specualation, but I think it will be Dark Myr for Paladin. It makes the most sense with lore (Paladins are vengeful clerics that drop the tome to pick up the Hammer) and the Dark Myr can already be Clerics.

    The downside are the racial passives, they are the absolute worst for the Paladin class. One thing we can still hope for, are killer racial actives.

    Well Paladin certainly deserves it more than any others, with only 2 so far.

    I'd think Skar would be a more useful race to add, but as Paly is my 3rd choice for Tank I don't have any personal interest in which they choose.

    • 23 posts
    March 5, 2020 7:24 PM PST

    Celandor said:

    I guess I missed the Archai summoner bean.  When did that drop?

    It was metioned in one of the Q&A with Kilsin, dont recall if it was Part 1 or Part 2 iirc

    • 1857 posts
    March 5, 2020 11:37 PM PST

    Well I assumed they would remove Shaman for humans  :P .

     

    But maybe, it's good for the hopefull peoples, for me I couldn't care less about Dark Myrs paladins. (Archai summoner is however something interesting to me).

    • 986 posts
    March 6, 2020 5:42 PM PST

    I'm hoping for either Dark Myr or Archai Paladins; I would like to see something like Mauv mentioned and have the Shaman removed from humans, but I'm doubting that at this point.  I'm also kind of expecting cleric to be added to another race.

    • 494 posts
    March 6, 2020 8:15 PM PST

    Darch said:

    I'm hoping for either Dark Myr or Archai Paladins; I would like to see something like Mauv mentioned and have the Shaman removed from humans, but I'm doubting that at this point.  I'm also kind of expecting cleric to be added to another race.

    Yeah I would love Archai Paladin as well, but that's kind of wonky lore-wise. Archai model is dope.

    • 356 posts
    March 31, 2020 11:25 AM PDT
    I suspect it's one of the following:

    1) Hafling Enchanter: Haflings are playful tricksters and Enchanting is about tricking or coercing.

    2) Dark Myr Paladin: "Paladins set off on their own to carry out their righteous judgment as they see fit." That sounds like the judgemental Dark Myr to me.

    3) Ogre Ranger: Ogres are a tribal, live-off-the-land race.

    4) Elf Monk: Monks are all about harmony between body and soul, and elves traditionally are a very harmonious race.
    • 1639 posts
    April 10, 2020 1:22 PM PDT

    Elf monk is my pick as well

     

    To be Ogre Rangers and Dark Myr Paladins make no sense tome, and the while they can be druids or clerics is the most paper to pen explanation you could literally give me, as plenty of the lore from both races actually explain pretty well why they weren't to begin with.

     

    Halfling Enchanter would be interesting

     

    Plus Dark Myr can be every class but 3 so why are people so intent on giving them more when they're some races that have far less.


    This post was edited by Riahuf22 at April 10, 2020 1:27 PM PDT
    • 52 posts
    April 14, 2020 12:42 PM PDT

    ohhh Ogre Ranger would be very interesting! 

     

     

    • 5 posts
    May 1, 2020 3:51 PM PDT

    If Dark Myr is the worst for paladin. Then maybe add some items ingame to make them less gimpy? Just like they did for eurdite palidins in EQ1 

    • 986 posts
    May 2, 2020 11:13 AM PDT

    @Erizo - I'm sure there will be items that make some players better than others regardless of race, as well as expansions (and buffs) that will eventually make the differences between races trivial.  But I get what you are saying in regard to those small differences making a significant difference at the early stages of a game.

    • 38 posts
    May 23, 2020 6:50 PM PDT

    I think the more options they have, the better. I'm currently thinking Dwarf Paladin, Archai Monk, and possibly of it's available at launch a Gnome/Skar necromancer. I don't know; I have to look at the Paladin stuff again, and hopefully, they fix up what the Dwarves look like currently since they look very weird to me.

    • 461 posts
    May 24, 2020 6:23 AM PDT

    I was thinking Dark Myr as well. That'd be the best bet.

    MauvaisOeil said: Well I assumed they would remove Shaman for humans  :P . 

    Honestly, I wouldn't mind seeing Humans lose Shaman and or Druid. Druids are already far too frequent as a class choice with the racial options given the other healers and in particular, Cleric. Also, the loss doesn't mean anything for Ranger since this isn't EQ where the Druid and Ranger are mechanically linked. Humans can keep Rangers but lose Druids.

    I could also argue for Humans losing Wizard and Summoner but keeping Enchanter and Necromancer giving the four pure casters four race options (since Necro is capped at 4). This can be rationalized that the purist of magical races would have that function and Humans aren't quite there. Since Enchanters operate on a slightly different medium, Humans can become them. However, Dark Myr, Elf, Gnome and the elemental Archai all fit the bill. 

    That right there has Humans losing Druid, Wizard, Summoner and possibly Shaman. Right there, that looks a bit more appropriate from a matrix point of view.

    Counterfleche said: I suspect it's one of the following: 1) Hafling Enchanter: Haflings are playful tricksters and Enchanting is about tricking or coercing...

    Probably not. It doesn't work all that well with the racial background and matters of the arcane. Giving Dwarf as an option was a hell of a stretch and probably didn't have to happen. However, they seem to be keen to keeping the pure casters at five racial selections. It's probably in part why Summoner was given Archai to push their number to five with Enchanter and Wizard. Giving Enchanters a sixth just doesn't seem like something they'll do. That's just my guess though.


    This post was edited by Janus at May 24, 2020 6:29 AM PDT
    • 1857 posts
    May 24, 2020 7:34 AM PDT

    Janus said:

    I was thinking Dark Myr as well. That'd be the best bet.

    MauvaisOeil said: Well I assumed they would remove Shaman for humans  :P . 

    Honestly, I wouldn't mind seeing Humans lose Shaman and or Druid. Druids are already far too frequent as a class choice with the racial options given the other healers and in particular, Cleric. Also, the loss doesn't mean anything for Ranger since this isn't EQ where the Druid and Ranger are mechanically linked. Humans can keep Rangers but lose Druids.

    I could also argue for Humans losing Wizard and Summoner but keeping Enchanter and Necromancer giving the four pure casters four race options (since Necro is capped at 4). This can be rationalized that the purist of magical races would have that function and Humans aren't quite there. Since Enchanters operate on a slightly different medium, Humans can become them. However, Dark Myr, Elf, Gnome and the elemental Archai all fit the bill. 

    That right there has Humans losing Druid, Wizard, Summoner and possibly Shaman. Right there, that looks a bit more appropriate from a matrix point of view.

     

    I'm not interested in a mathematical balancing. Race/class restriction must make sense over the lore written and the vibes of a race, not to please players in a balance standpoint. I consider Priests (Cleric/druid/shaman) as representative of the beliefs of the race and I find odd a race can believe in anything at the same time, yet have strict temples and knightly heritage, which is why I find odd they have shamans. Druids could be considered as a side hippie cult but two of them with only once city seems really odd.

    • 461 posts
    May 24, 2020 9:30 AM PDT

    Yeah, in that I agree as the priest aspect, I thought as that being one of the reasons it doesn't make all that much sense. Clerics yet in the same city you have Shamans which are more out in the wild, same for Druids and the idea of it within Thronefast doesn't seem all that normal.

    • 62 posts
    June 8, 2020 1:43 AM PDT

    Aw, it's kind of too bad to hear about it changing, in my opinion. I thought the matrix as it stands is perfect. It all says so much about each race/class. Enchanters as the one dwarf magician, summoners noticeably missing from archai, paladins from myr, gnomes as the one race without warriors... good stuff that lines up powerfully to almost give you their perspective without reading them.

    • 3 posts
    October 18, 2020 12:59 PM PDT

    I really wish that we could have a serious discussion about Race/Class makeups. I would love to play a Paladin of Dark Myr race because my GF will be playing a Cleric and Dark Myr race. I honestly think that if a race has clerics they should have Paladin also.

    • 986 posts
    October 21, 2020 1:46 PM PDT

    Janus said:

    Yeah, in that I agree as the priest aspect, I thought as that being one of the reasons it doesn't make all that much sense. Clerics yet in the same city you have Shamans which are more out in the wild, same for Druids and the idea of it within Thronefast doesn't seem all that normal.

    I can see what you guys are saying about temple worship within Thronefast.  But with that said, not all humans have to reside within Thronefast even if they were born there.  Now if you have the Druid, Shaman or even Ranger guild/trainers within the city walls, that will be pretty silly... same as Dire Lord or Necro, unless it is similar to EQ where there are secret sewer guilds and such.  I still say Cleric + Fighter = Paladin though... that one's logic will always blow my mind on how the lore contradicts the point that Dark Myr aren't on the Paladin list (yet).  People will make up their own reasoning about Dark Myr "lacking conviction" needed to be a Paladin, but to paraphrase the class descriptions (that have even been redone) the Paladin was a Cleric that leaned toward Fighter - period.  And what race has conviction if not the Dark Myr any way?


    This post was edited by Darch at October 21, 2020 1:47 PM PDT
    • 584 posts
    October 25, 2020 1:51 PM PDT

    Darch said: "People will make up their own reasoning about Dark Myr "lacking conviction" needed to be a Paladin"

    The Paladin page actually says: "Once a Cleric themselves, the Paladin has felt a call that transcends the rigid customs of the Cleric Order."

    The Dark Myr page actually says: "... Their majesty transcends the waters ..."

    Sounds to me like the Dark Myr are a 'transcending' type of people... wouldn't be hard to believe their clerics could 'transcend the rigid customs' and become Paladins.

    • 986 posts
    November 4, 2020 11:31 AM PST

    @GoofyWarrior - Yep. That's what I'm saying too.  Some people will say that Dark Myr shouldn't be Paladins because of their lore, but the lore can easily be aruged how they should be Paladins.

    • 18 posts
    December 15, 2020 2:37 PM PST

    I posted this a while back on Reddit (the links no longer work). I think it gives some good reasons Archai make maybe the most sense to me as another paladin race:

    Having paladins currently limited to two races maybe isn't great. I thought about how the Archai could potentially fit the lore of paladin. In order to make this happen, first they need to fit clerics, so:

    Archai came from the planet of Roa, which had its own celestial(s) -- the beings clerics must draw upon, directly or indirectly, for their power. We know Roa had at least one celestial because followers of a dark celestial enslaved the Arcahi (https://www.pantheonmmo.com/races/archai/). With a previous establishment of a clerical order on the current Archai island-nation of Su'Roa, this could work lore-wise.

    Paladins branched off of the strict practices of clerics to pursue their own path. Archai seem to fit a lot of the traits inherent in paladins. Some examples follow:

    Paladins are seeking righteous judgment, and Archai seem perfect as they were once enslaved and are now free to exact judgment manifested from the indignation of their imprisonment and racial oppression.

    Speaking of hymnody from the OP and other potentially paladin-like characteristics, "On Terminus, [Archai] are renowned for their culture of endurance, poise and intrepidness, as well as a robust legacy of jubilation, song and display [emphasis added], (https://www.pantheonmmo.com/races/archai/).

    Furthermore, paladins "have devoted themselves to the study of arms and armor, giving Paladins renowned ability in defensive combat (https://www.pantheonmmo.com/classes/paladin/).

    Keep this "arms and armor" statement in mind when reading about Archai from their racial page linked two paragraphs above: "Yet the Archai heritage is not one of enslavement, but valor, uprising and celebration. On Roa they waged a clandestine war of liberation, billowing into a nation of indomitable warriors...."

    Perhaps we will see other race-class combinations yet, especially as the community looks for possibly viable fusions.

    The reply I got added some additional reasoning.

    2 points · 4 months ago · edited 4 months ago

    From enslavement to knighthood? The contrast of past and present would lend itself well to character motivation, with them not adhering blindly to the application/letter of the law or practices of any religious body, knowing how both could be used with malicious intent. This is actually a stronger argument than the one made for elves.

    Also, the distinct striations of light that can be seen in and around their eyes and throughout the musculature of their upper torsos further complements the visual theme of paladin spells and abilities in Terminus (Sense Undeath, Lightguard, Lance of the Lightful, Living Light).

    Side note: Inspiration for the Archai likely came from the expansion statue.

    http://paigebradley.com/blog/the-story-of-expansion/


    This post was edited by NathHaw at December 15, 2020 2:39 PM PST
    • 584 posts
    December 19, 2020 11:03 PM PST

    NathHaw said: "Archai came from the planet of Roa, which had its own celestial(s) -- the beings clerics must draw upon, directly or indirectly, for their power."

    What you are basically saying is 'Archai have Deities; Clerics get their Powers from Deities; Paladins were once Clerics; Therefore Archai should be Paladins."

    BUT... this could be said of every single race. It's implied in the title of the game; "Pantheon" referring to the Deities that each Race that reaches Terminus brings with them. So since every single Race in this game has Deities, by your argument this should mean every single Race should have Clerics and Paladins.

    Yet if you take a quick read of the Cleric page here on the website, you might notice that it says:

    "After the Deicide War, communion with the Celestials is nearly unheard of. Thus, the Cleric can scarcely rely on their Pantheon directly. Instead, they must bind themselves to the ancient tomes of their Order; the fading vestiges of light from when the Celestials had drawn near."

    So Cleric's in Pantheon are more of a group who 'Study the Vestiges of Celestial Light' rather than those who commune with Deities directly to get granted their powers. This means they are more like Wizards in the way they deal with their powers than like Shamans (Ancestral Energy) and Druids (Nature Energy)

    In the case of Archai, their Lore says that they were created as a Slave race ("the Archai were originally created from another race of pure, magical energy called the Aoeyn. These innocent beings were tragically deconstructed and recomposed by the vile followers of Roa’s dark Celestial Lord and bred as a nation of slaves.") who then rose up and liberated themselves ("On Roa they waged a clandestine war of liberation, billowing into a nation of indomitable warriors and overthrowing their captors to utter defeat long ago.") from their creators and on Terminus they are more inclined to be forward thinkers rather than dwelling on the Celestials of their difficult past... ("they are renowned for their culture of endurance, poise and intrepidness, as well as a robust legacy of jubilation, song and display.") hence why Archai listed Bards on the Class matrix.

    When it comes down to a Race having Paladins, they must first have Clerics... Currently 3 Races can be Clerics but only 2 of those can be Paladins. Our point is that this 3rd Race (Dark Myr) should also have Paladins, since they already have Clerics.

    Obviously if you can make a great case for a Race to have formed a Cleric order to study the 'Vestiges of Celestial Light' from the past, then perhaps we could see a new Race having Clerics and Paladins. But right now I'm just hoping we can convince VR that Dark Myr have a Transcendant personalities.

    • 986 posts
    February 24, 2021 7:45 AM PST

    The lore doesn't "strictly" align with the race/class matrix as it stands because anyone can find lore somewhere else that contradicts another person's "opinion" of that lore.  The race/class matrix is designed to create limitations in order to present a sense of scarcity which is the psychological strength of games like EQ.  High scarcity makes for more rewarding gameplay (but too much can kill a game for some because this also increases deindividuation so they have to find a balance - WoW did this fairly well, which combined with their smooth gameplay just outside the "uncanny valley effect" made it wildly popular and psychologcially addictive).  The high risk vs reward, high scarcity, and low RNG values were pretty important psychological factors that makes EQ the game that it is.  Its gameplay and graphics are quite antiquated compared to what is available to people today... "game mechanics" are not what I mean by "gameplay".  By gameplay I mean responsiveness and mobility of combat, not manipulating server ticks and strafing or clipping frames to see through walls or stay just out of melee reach of an NPC... which people do still play simply because they can take advantage of game mechanics like that too - but that's irrelevant to the intended game design principals.. like race/class restriction scarcity.

    "Scarcity is the phenomenon where, when a product or service is limited in availability (or perceived as being limited), it becomes more attractive."


    This post was edited by Darch at February 24, 2021 7:55 AM PST