Forums » The Cleric

Constructiv critisism

    • 144 posts
    February 13, 2020 11:08 AM PST

    Ok in the last roundtable discussion you wanted some constructiv critisism (and that you would read it) so i thought upp some things thats been bothering me

    everyone who likes the class can off course pitch in i mean i might need some critisism to =) not only on spelling but content =)

    Nummer 1 Favor of the Order passiv skill we hit in meele we get hp back sounds good well we hit probobly very bad and in very poor numbers so whats the point i mean we are a healer class and we can use heals so why even have a passiv skill with no real use we could use it in the very start fighting rats and bats but i dont think we will get more then 1-2 hp in refound per/hit

    Nummber 2 Tome of the Initiate ok why do i have my worries on this one well we summon a book to use in the inventory therefore we lose the ability to use a shield. Why is this bad well i mean what if i found a shield with a nice stat like say wisdom +2 and beside the shield gives ac so it always lower my damage from meele attack ofcourse the book might provide buffs to,but it is a strange buff to first lose the equipment slot where i already have some equipment stats on to gain another equall or perhaps worse stats on ?

    Nummer 3 Celestial Aegis (thanks for removing the epic ability on this one) ehm the now not so indestructible wall sorry cant really find many uses for it beside a movable lightpost (short duration) could be used in narrow passageways but not outdoor and many places like halnirs cave who is a massiv open space even if it is underground, and because monsters can destroy the barrier and with short duration this spell might not really not find many uses...

    Nummer 4 Undead spells yes we got plenty of spells to make undeads yell in pain sadly we have no ways to controll them, and with controll them i mean in a solo enviroment like kite/movement debuff/snare/fear/pet style of controll. and why do i say solo enviroment well because in a group content we are designated to HEAL 90% BUFF 10% that dosent make room for other mana wasting things like i want to nuke undeads..

     

    • 1661 posts
    February 13, 2020 11:20 AM PST

    This makes my head hurt.

    • 144 posts
    February 13, 2020 11:52 AM PST

    philo said:

    This makes my head hurt.

    well that was Constructiv...att least i can give you a pill for the Headache =)

    • 686 posts
    February 13, 2020 1:31 PM PST

    Here is my constructive criticism: every one of your concerns seems to be based on a negative assumption you made about the ability in question. If you assume that an ability will be useless then it's pretty easy to 'prove' that it's useless.

    1 "we hit probobly very bad and in very poor numbers"..."but i dont think we will get more then 1-2 hp in refound per/hit"
    Perhaps VR is designing a Cleric's melee ability to have SOME use, and this is their way to get you to use it. Perhaps in all those groups that complain if you use any mana for DPS. Maybe when you're not healing and still have plenty of mana, rather than stand around waiting to heal you could wade in and add some melee damage to the Mob. Maybe that's why they put you in Platemail!  See how making positive assumptions will totally change the picture?

    2 "what if i found a shield with a nice stat " and then " lose the equipment slot where i already have some equipment stats on to gain another equall or perhaps worse stats"
    You might well benefit more from using a shield when soloing, but in a group you're almost guaranteed to get more benefit from a tome than a sheild. (At least, if the Tank is doing his job) Tomes are specialty items created just for Clerics and once you get past starter levels are very likely to have better, more Cleric-focused bonuses than any shield.

    3 You'll have to tell me what 'epic ability' has been removed from that, I haven't heard of any changes from what the class description says. Sticking with the class description, a giant impassible shield that blocks Mob movements and potentially blocks melee damage....hmmm, let me think, how could I use that to protect my Tank or Group...

    4 Kiting is for Cloth wearing characters who could easily die from just a hit or two. Why on earth are you assuming that a Platemail-wearing, Shield-carrying HEALER needs to kite in order to solo? And needs to kite Undead, of all things, the critters that he has special x-tra powerful abililties to kill?

    If you want to make assumptions, that's up to you. But please see the distinction between those abilities and the assumptions you make about them.


    This post was edited by Jothany at February 13, 2020 1:51 PM PST
    • 144 posts
    February 13, 2020 3:07 PM PST

    Jothany said:

    Here is my constructive criticism: every one of your concerns seems to be based on a negative assumption you made about the ability in question. If you assume that an ability will be useless then it's pretty easy to 'prove' that it's useless.

    1 "we hit probobly very bad and in very poor numbers"..."but i dont think we will get more then 1-2 hp in refound per/hit"
    Perhaps VR is designing a Cleric's melee ability to have SOME use, and this is their way to get you to use it. Perhaps in all those groups that complain if you use any mana for DPS. Maybe when you're not healing and still have plenty of mana, rather than stand around waiting to heal you could wade in and add some melee damage to the Mob. Maybe that's why they put you in Platemail!  See how making positive assumptions will totally change the picture?

    2 "what if i found a shield with a nice stat " and then " lose the equipment slot where i already have some equipment stats on to gain another equall or perhaps worse stats"
    You might well benefit more from using a shield when soloing, but in a group you're almost guaranteed to get more benefit from a tome than a sheild. (At least, if the Tank is doing his job) Tomes are specialty items created just for Clerics and once you get past starter levels are very likely to have better, more Cleric-focused bonuses than any shield.

    3 You'll have to tell me what 'epic ability' has been removed from that, I haven't heard of any changes from what the class description says. Sticking with the class description, a giant impassible shield that blocks Mob movements and potentially blocks melee damage....hmmm, let me think, how could I use that to protect my Tank or Group...

    4 Kiting is for Cloth wearing characters who could easily die from just a hit or two. Why on earth are you assuming that a Platemail-wearing, Shield-carrying HEALER needs to kite in order to solo? And needs to kite Undead, of all things, the critters that he has special x-tra powerful abililties to kill?

    If you want to make assumptions, that's up to you. But please see the distinction between those abilities and the assumptions you make about them.

    well attleast you read it but in the first paragraph it wasent about the melie ability or damage is was the passive ability that gives a certain amount of health back when you hit something because of the small nummbers i have seen in the devs stream i belive we hit fairly weak but yes you are corect we can do physical dps so my consern is why have a couple of points of health given back (we are healers already)

    nummber 2 might have been hard to give corect word to but why not give a ordinary buff spell instead of remove the item slot for a summonded object 

    nummber 3 yeah i might have put the wrong wording there before it was called iconic ability not epic (sorry for that) and if you had follow the burning questions in the dev stream they actually changed the stats on the shield from totaly indistructible to distructeble and if the mob could go around they would (that might be trubbel for the party if the side coridor suddenly got 15 angry mobs running you down) i stand that the spell is only usfull indoor in a confined space,still it can get destroyed and that makes it very situational.

    nummer 4 is because everyone see you like a healer and buffer (like we can do meele because we dont waste mana that way) so that means that the undead damage spells are mostly for solo perhaps? and my understanding that this is a grp centric game it would be unwise to get close upp to any mob even if you have full plate+shield/healer so to use the spells that we have against undead we might need some of the abilitys i talked about.attleast i think it reasonable to find a way to use spells.

     

    Well ofcourse i might see things different but i like to point out things that might be a future problem not to crash the system,and yes i still know i would be flamed and roosted but like i said i dont always have right i might be wrong about everything attleast i am humble to point that one out.

    still this thread was constructiv from the last dev stream that they want our critisism or worries so i though why not 

    Best regards Aqua and plz bring more gas to the fire =)

    • 655 posts
    February 14, 2020 8:47 AM PST

    I'm with Philo on this one.   Tried 3 times to read your post.  My brain melted.

    I mean this in the nicest way possible   Make friends with Grammarly.com. 

    Kudos to Jothany for his perseverance.

    • 144 posts
    February 14, 2020 10:24 AM PST

    Celandor said:

    I'm with Philo on this one.   Tried 3 times to read your post.  My brain melted.

    I mean this in the nicest way possible   Make friends with Grammarly.com. 

    Kudos to Jothany for his perseverance.

    Well i know i write poorly i actually got Dysgraphia meaning that i have very hard time with words and grammar...

    still if you tried you might understand some off it perhaps ?

    and if you dont why even bother writing a comment (i will ofcourse take any critisism thats not the problem so kudos to jothanny he actually had a opinion,witch is great)

    • 2 posts
    February 14, 2020 12:55 PM PST

    Aqua said:

    everyone who likes the class can off course pitch in i mean i might need some critisism to =) not only on spelling but content =)

    In all fairness you did ask for criticism and that is what you got.  I'm sorry about your dysgraphia but without context how was anyone to know?  More often than not poor grammar and spelling is not the result of dysgraphia. 


    This post was edited by Mazikeel at February 14, 2020 1:00 PM PST
    • 655 posts
    February 14, 2020 12:59 PM PST

    Aqua, I apologize if you were offended.  My suggestion to try Grammarly to help you with your online posts was most sincere.

    Take care and I look forward to eventually meeting you in-game.

    • 1661 posts
    February 15, 2020 5:41 AM PST

    Aqua, it seems like it might be tough to communicate in a group that doesn't use voice chat.  Did you play EQ or other games that required you to type to communicate?  How did that go? Was it an issue?


    This post was edited by philo at February 15, 2020 5:43 AM PST
    • 144 posts
    February 15, 2020 8:57 AM PST

    philo said:

    Aqua, it seems like it might be tough to communicate in a group that doesn't use voice chat.  Did you play EQ or other games that required you to type to communicate?  How did that go? Was it an issue?

    well i have played many mmos and doing typing and when doing shorter sentence it normally works but errors like-if gets to iff- or i want to grp gets to-i grp wants-still most people understand unless i elaborate to mutch like my starting post

    otherwise i dont take critisism to serius so no problem there if the content is not ok or totally banana crazy i dont take offense and i will respect your will

    Still wants to play i grp challange game like pantheon and i will try to write my best.Who know i will perhaps heal you to philo.

     

    • 686 posts
    February 15, 2020 2:22 PM PST

    Aqua said:

    Jothany said: ...

    well attleast you read it but in the first paragraph it wasent about the melie ability or damage is was the passive ability that gives a certain amount of health back when you hit something because of the small nummbers i have seen in the devs stream i belive we hit fairly weak but yes you are corect we can do physical dps so my consern is why have a couple of points of health given back (we are healers already)

    nummber 2 might have been hard to give corect word to but why not give a ordinary buff spell instead of remove the item slot for a summonded object 

    nummber 3 yeah i might have put the wrong wording there before it was called iconic ability not epic (sorry for that) and if you had follow the burning questions in the dev stream they actually changed the stats on the shield from totaly indistructible to distructeble and if the mob could go around they would (that might be trubbel for the party if the side coridor suddenly got 15 angry mobs running you down) i stand that the spell is only usfull indoor in a confined space,still it can get destroyed and that makes it very situational.

    nummer 4 is because everyone see you like a healer and buffer (like we can do meele because we dont waste mana that way) so that means that the undead damage spells are mostly for solo perhaps? and my understanding that this is a grp centric game it would be unwise to get close upp to any mob even if you have full plate+shield/healer so to use the spells that we have against undead we might need some of the abilitys i talked about.attleast i think it reasonable to find a way to use spells.

    Well ofcourse i might see things different but i like to point out things that might be a future problem not to crash the system,and yes i still know i would be flamed and roosted but like i said i dont always have right i might be wrong about everything attleast i am humble to point that one out.

    still this thread was constructiv from the last dev stream that they want our critisism or worries so i though why not 

    Best regards Aqua and plz bring more gas to the fire =)

    1. Yes I was referring to the passive Hp bonus when I said it might be a way for VR to encourage us to use our melee. The rest of what I wrote was about why they might want you to do that.

    Devs have said that they will be adjusting actual numbers for damage, gear stats, spell durations, etc. in Alpha/Beta when they can get lots of info from actual gameplay so we shouldn't worry about them until then. Also if you decided to use your melee skill right from the beginning, it would certainly be much higher than someone who only used it on auto-attack while waiting for a cooldown.

    Passive abilities require no thought, strategy or effort by the player. So I'd never expect them to be really powerful. Generating some Hp from melee seems like a good, small bonus for a Healer that adds "flavor" to the class without being overpowering.

    You said you wanted to "point out things that might be a future problem". I honestly can't see any possible problems from a Healer getting a few free Hp from his melee.


    2 Tomes are gear that gives Clerics very powerful buffs. As they level, Clerics will get many tomes, so they will have a choice of which bonuses they can have. Having to CHOOSE between the benefit of shield or tome is just another form of strategy. Pantheon intends to be a challenging game that requires learning and skill. If you could have the bonus from tomes AND have a shield, where is the strategy in that? It would also make the Cleric more powerful, and class "balance" is one of the trickiest and most hotly debated subjects on these forums (and probably in VR's offices as well).


    3 I already expected a free-standing barrier to be 'situational'. Pretty much every offensive ability in the game is time-limited and situational. The Celestial Aegis isn't any different from them in that way.

    There will be plenty of building, castles, caves and dungeons in Pantheon. Anyplace there is a small opening that mobs could come through will be a situation where the spell could be useful. We won't really know the actual final stats for most things till later as I said above. So worrying that it will be useless because it doesn't last long is no better than worrying that it will be overpowered because will last too long.

    Also, I'm pretty certain that CC players will eventually get an AoE mez at some point in their career. When a bunch of adds come running up a side corridor towards the group, being able to put up a block that causes the adds to bunch-up in one spot while they fight their way through could be VERY effective in helping the CC to mez them all.

    4 Clerics are historically considered the most 'unkillable' class in the game, even more than Tanks. When soloing, more Clerics die from boredom than from the monster they are fighting :) Giving a Cleric kiting skills on top of everything else he has sounds to me like it would let him solo all the way to max level, and be extremely overpowered.

    There's some more 'gas' for ya :)

    • 144 posts
    February 20, 2020 7:59 AM PST

    Jothany said:

    Aqua said:

    Jothany said: ...

    well attleast you read it but in the first paragraph it wasent about the melie ability or damage is was the passive ability that gives a certain amount of health back when you hit something because of the small nummbers i have seen in the devs stream i belive we hit fairly weak but yes you are corect we can do physical dps so my consern is why have a couple of points of health given back (we are healers already)

    nummber 2 might have been hard to give corect word to but why not give a ordinary buff spell instead of remove the item slot for a summonded object 

    nummber 3 yeah i might have put the wrong wording there before it was called iconic ability not epic (sorry for that) and if you had follow the burning questions in the dev stream they actually changed the stats on the shield from totaly indistructible to distructeble and if the mob could go around they would (that might be trubbel for the party if the side coridor suddenly got 15 angry mobs running you down) i stand that the spell is only usfull indoor in a confined space,still it can get destroyed and that makes it very situational.

    nummer 4 is because everyone see you like a healer and buffer (like we can do meele because we dont waste mana that way) so that means that the undead damage spells are mostly for solo perhaps? and my understanding that this is a grp centric game it would be unwise to get close upp to any mob even if you have full plate+shield/healer so to use the spells that we have against undead we might need some of the abilitys i talked about.attleast i think it reasonable to find a way to use spells.

    Well ofcourse i might see things different but i like to point out things that might be a future problem not to crash the system,and yes i still know i would be flamed and roosted but like i said i dont always have right i might be wrong about everything attleast i am humble to point that one out.

    still this thread was constructiv from the last dev stream that they want our critisism or worries so i though why not 

    Best regards Aqua and plz bring more gas to the fire =)

    1. Yes I was referring to the passive Hp bonus when I said it might be a way for VR to encourage us to use our melee. The rest of what I wrote was about why they might want you to do that.

    Devs have said that they will be adjusting actual numbers for damage, gear stats, spell durations, etc. in Alpha/Beta when they can get lots of info from actual gameplay so we shouldn't worry about them until then. Also if you decided to use your melee skill right from the beginning, it would certainly be much higher than someone who only used it on auto-attack while waiting for a cooldown.

    Passive abilities require no thought, strategy or effort by the player. So I'd never expect them to be really powerful. Generating some Hp from melee seems like a good, small bonus for a Healer that adds "flavor" to the class without being overpowering.

    You said you wanted to "point out things that might be a future problem". I honestly can't see any possible problems from a Healer getting a few free Hp from his melee.


    2 Tomes are gear that gives Clerics very powerful buffs. As they level, Clerics will get many tomes, so they will have a choice of which bonuses they can have. Having to CHOOSE between the benefit of shield or tome is just another form of strategy. Pantheon intends to be a challenging game that requires learning and skill. If you could have the bonus from tomes AND have a shield, where is the strategy in that? It would also make the Cleric more powerful, and class "balance" is one of the trickiest and most hotly debated subjects on these forums (and probably in VR's offices as well).


    3 I already expected a free-standing barrier to be 'situational'. Pretty much every offensive ability in the game is time-limited and situational. The Celestial Aegis isn't any different from them in that way.

    There will be plenty of building, castles, caves and dungeons in Pantheon. Anyplace there is a small opening that mobs could come through will be a situation where the spell could be useful. We won't really know the actual final stats for most things till later as I said above. So worrying that it will be useless because it doesn't last long is no better than worrying that it will be overpowered because will last too long.

    Also, I'm pretty certain that CC players will eventually get an AoE mez at some point in their career. When a bunch of adds come running up a side corridor towards the group, being able to put up a block that causes the adds to bunch-up in one spot while they fight their way through could be VERY effective in helping the CC to mez them all.

    4 Clerics are historically considered the most 'unkillable' class in the game, even more than Tanks. When soloing, more Clerics die from boredom than from the monster they are fighting :) Giving a Cleric kiting skills on top of everything else he has sounds to me like it would let him solo all the way to max level, and be extremely overpowered.

    There's some more 'gas' for ya :)

    well i could argue some =)

    1 well i still think it is a somewhat meak passive skills,you are right passives dont require brain to use) why is it meak well to little healing to be usefull undless the % is overwelming,i belive a passive might not go over 5% in most cases so say you hit a mob for 100 points you get 5 hp back i mean shaman gets a bonus on all healing (passiv) so say they got hot for 1k going they got 50 health back,personally i think it is kinda meak to shaman to because they have many grp heals going anyway.

    2 Tomes well what does it do anyway summonded it give cleric the ability to cast light spells,and under right conditions have a chance to block out some damage.i cant se any really powerfull stuff there no stats buff/no ability enhancment.It just says you can wield more powerfull tomes in the future not what it does.

    3 Well interesting way to use it and it might work (if you have a enchanter onboard) still like what you said it stops phycical dps until the barrier drops but i am pretty sure it stops the partys non magic damage to and what happend if there is a gang of caster mobs nuking the hell out of the party when you cant do a thing perhaps not even a taunt (it might be to early to say)

    4 Undead kiting and unkillable superclerics.

    kiting well why not ? both the other healers can kite and do some damage i mean we can only go after undead we have a whole slew of spells for undead,and like a said i dont think a grp takes in a cleric for his dps spells meaning they are mostly there for another purpose beside clerics spells cost mana its not like we drown in the stuff.Unkilleble well i have actually seen some streams cant say clerics look to impossible to kill (perhaps they will be hard in pvp due to the healing but we are talking mobs here)

    well mostly gas but no fire i would say =) beside this post that i created was more of a attempt to discuss cleric and if people had some concerns and perhaps voice it to the dev team (if they listen)

    This will mostly be my last post in the cleric corner it seems abit empty here =/