Forums » The Dire Lord

very hopeful: cohh stream/dec stream

    • 70 posts
    January 18, 2020 11:21 PM PST

    did some comparison and i noticed that the cohh stream (towards the end) roughly 41:27.. he was tanking with higher end gear. as with the the december stream with saicred (as warrior) while Cohh did have a better gear set it was noticable (at least in my opinion) that the DL (while tanking in the same zone at the same LVL) was at least on par with the warrior. while yes the spike damage was noticable it was maintainable. and in my opinion this was the first comparison between the two that really gave me hope that the classes will be balanced enough to not be overly concerned. while I have been a fan of cohh since the first stream he did (never knew anything about him before) I think cohh is an amazing player not to take away from saicred ive only seen him in two video's and he just seemed less serious imo.  so i know the player matters above all. but all i am trying to say is i feel allot more comfortable after comparing the two streams side by side.. how about the rest of the DL community? do you feel a bit more relaxed after the two? I understand they really havnt shown the DL in a raid (or damage intensive boss) (hint hint hope hope for another DL stream) but as far as group content goes do you feel that the DL is where it should be?

    • 103 posts
    January 19, 2020 10:37 AM PST

    I would like to see the warrior have a big, noticeable advantage when it comes to physical tanking...and the DL have a big advantage when it comes to tanking magic/non-physical type mobs. Thats the biggest reason for them to be different. If a DL can be just on par with a warrior it seems to defeat the purpose of a warrior. 

     

    BTW, we are SO far away from release...that I wouldn't hold my breathe on how anything is balanced right now. I promise you a lot will be changing on probably every class even still. 

    • 492 posts
    January 20, 2020 7:22 PM PST

    I think the Cohh stream w/ the Dire Lord was in Avendyr's Pass and BRK, which those mobs did hit for significantly less than what the re-tuned Amberfaet mobs were hitting for. You really need a 1:1 to see the difference. Though I would prefer to see Paladin next :P

    • 933 posts
    January 21, 2020 6:01 PM PST

    Fragile said:

    I think the Cohh stream w/ the Dire Lord was in Avendyr's Pass and BRK, which those mobs did hit for significantly less than what the re-tuned Amberfaet mobs were hitting for. You really need a 1:1 to see the difference. Though I would prefer to see Paladin next :P

    Agreed.

    We already know all three tanks (and likely the monk) will be able to handle trash mobs with "relative" ease.  I would like to see some 1:1 comparisons at lvl 50 tanks versus lvl 50+ mobs; this is where the difference will become noticeable because of skill caps and gear escalation/scaling versus high enemy defenses/resists and attack ratings. 

    If the devs don't do this, players absolutely will; and that is when we will start to get elitist posts/videos about X class is trash or Y class is superior based on some random person's opinion (but backed with circumstantial evidence) that will become viral/universal abstract belief based on the only evidence provided to us if the devs don't provide the proof first.

    • 37 posts
    February 28, 2020 8:09 PM PST

    I agree with Darch, if they don't put it all out there for everyone to see, someone else will and they won't be nearly as forgiving.

     

    With that said, i still think they are going in the wrong direction with the DL.

    • 933 posts
    February 29, 2020 5:42 PM PST

    I agree Krakon, I feel they are going in the wrong direction with the DL too, but this is the direction they have taken and they are determined to make it work, so I'm expecting all kinds of tweeking/patching/updating/changing/rebalancing to the class throughout the life of the game.  

    I feel its too big of a disparity to have a "tank" be SO specialized in a group-centric game SO focused on a "quadrinity".  Balancing that is going to push the game back years or the class will be unbalanced (sometimes OP, sometimes trash - depending on the changes made every few months... which will likely lead to the class being ostracized - so best hopes for the class is that it pushes develpment out a few years).

    Add:  VR needs to perform a non-fanboi poll that asks the MMO community something like:

    "If you had to pick between two tanks for your group, and one wore heavy armor and used shields, but the other had higher magic resist, which would you choose?"
    A.  Armor and Shield with the same magic resistance as everyone else
    B.  High magic resistance and no armor or shield

    Because at the end of the day, this is what it will come down to for the vast majority of MMO players;  And in a community driven game, the outliers will likely flounder and die.


    This post was edited by Darch at February 29, 2020 5:50 PM PST
    • 492 posts
    February 29, 2020 7:52 PM PST

    I think everyone is placing way too much emphasis on the armor type. I am sure the DL only mail armor won't be super far behind plate. Also, the DL has a Blood Stance (Nightmare Blood) that reduces all incoming damage by 10%. When you add mail armor + that together, and know that their main bread & butter abilities Heal them for large amounts (25% and 12% max HP), I am confident they will not only be fine, but also viable.

    • 933 posts
    March 1, 2020 10:59 AM PST

    Good pionts @Fragile.  If the difference in armor types and no shield is only 10% then that will be great (and will allow all of the tanks to tank without requiring a shield with the exception of certain abilities requiring one).

    • 70 posts
    March 1, 2020 1:10 PM PST

    @Fragile I see your point of view. and understand where your coming from but warriors automatically get a 20% armor bonus if not mistaken? (its been a while since i looked through it) not to mention a shield which from the streams i have seen are a huge boost in AC "not to mention block" and im hoping (cant be sure as ive been gone for a bit) that warriors also dont have a stance and or banner that increases AC or reduces incomming damage. Now onto the healing... yes DL's getting a good amount of healing (so do paladins) but here's the way i see it from an outsiders perspective (not in PA) when in exp groups DL's will be good possibly above average depending.  but boss fights and raid content i think the damage output will be just to high to justify self healing as an option.  it may be ok in the first release of the game """""""maybe""""""" but as things progress and mobs become harder and hit harder etc it is my feeling that the gap will only grow... 

    • 492 posts
    March 1, 2020 2:11 PM PST
    HP's tend to scale higher and faster than AC, also a lot of games (we aren't sure how Pantheon does their formula yet) AC has diminishing returns. This makes the flat HP healing the DL has scale infinitely better, always. Assuming the DL doesn't get one-shot (ie: the damage spikes aren't healable overtime), it will be able to regain the lost HP extremely fast.

    To tack on to bonus armor, just to be clear - 20% bonus AC based on the Dec warrior streams would be around 200 armor - I doubt that's game breaking. One thing that can change everything will be knowing how the in-game AC formula works.
    • 758 posts
    March 1, 2020 2:18 PM PST

    Rhelic said:

    but warriors automatically get a 20% armor bonus if not mistaken? (its been a while since i looked through it)

    That is still on the Warrior class page as a passive ability. However, info posted in the Pantheon wiki says that it was changed into a "Combat Resource mechanic " last Nov.

    Removed Abilites at bottom

    • 492 posts
    March 1, 2020 5:59 PM PST

    Shield Mastery: Passive - Your dedication to shield training grants you a 10% bonus to your overall Armor Class when you have a shield equipped.

    I believe they moved the 20% (that's listed on the class page as: Armor Proficiency) to Shield Mastery and to the bonus resilience increase from AC. Nothing has been 100% confirmed though.

    • 70 posts
    March 2, 2020 2:57 PM PST

    As you said nothing has been confirmed so this is all just speculation, and even though i have my concerns i do hope the DL pans out, I would hate to have to wait around in another game for a year or more for a game developer to address a balancing issue, as i said i think they will be great in exp groups but endgame bosses and raiding content is where my concerns are.. however  (yes i know cohh is playing a warrior) but in this stream he is wearing DL wearable armor https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vxwfue78XLY&t=2485s at roughly 41.25  While i know this is alpha they stated in the stream that the armor he was givin was dropable in game (im sure there could and will be some tweaks) and in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIqZEMCC5nA&t=4057s roughly 1:07:11 Saicred is wearing some obviously newly developed possibly just for testing gear but it states warrior in the developer notes for the items.. what makes me hopeful is the fact that the AC difference doesnt "SEEM" (for alpha) that much different so this being alpha and everything could change it does give me a little hope that the disadvantage might not be as bad as i though, however look at the AC on that shield. thats allot of ac to be loosing :/  another thing i was slightly disspointed in was when joppa in one of the live streams said that all hps (tank types) will be the same per level the only thing outside of stats that will affect this is the race you choose. now hopefully DL armor will have a higher hp gain on items or i think the warrior and DL are going to be fairly similar and healing will just be that much more difficult. spike damage in every MMO ive played has been a flawed system, unless you develop skills or spells to manage damage intake (basically make them like a warrior which would be pointless) kinda like eq2 did with monks and broke them since they could be invul for half the fight :P 

    Also as an afterthought, leksur stated in his stream he wasnt using the magic resist buff (DL's bread and butter) because it didnt seem noticable.  Now im not sure if DL's have innate (passive) MR... but if its not noticable and that buff is what gives us that MR they really oughta do something about that... we should definatly be able to tell if thats what the tank is designed around


    This post was edited by Rhelic at March 2, 2020 3:01 PM PST
    • 758 posts
    March 2, 2020 4:33 PM PST

    Rhelic said:

    another thing i was slightly disspointed in was when joppa in one of the live streams said that all hps (tank types) will be the same per level the only thing outside of stats that will affect this is the race you choose.

     

    Also as an afterthought, leksur stated in his stream he wasnt using the magic resist buff (DL's bread and butter) because it didnt seem noticable.  Now im not sure if DL's have innate (passive) MR... but if its not noticable and that buff is what gives us that MR they really oughta do something about that... we should definatly be able to tell if thats what the tank is designed around

    If the stream you mean is this one, I interpreted it differently.

    Burning Questions October 23, 2019

    It didn't seem to me like he was saying that the different classes of tanks would have the same base hit points 'every level', just the same base hit points at the start of the game. I expect -based on my own assumptions, nothing else- that different races will get differing amounts of Hp increases per level. An Ogre for instance should have his Hps go up more each level than a Human (for example). In addition, we will receive some amount of Attribute Points as we level - no idea yet how many - that we can choose where to spend them. So a DL might put most or all of them into whichever attribute adds the most Hp, while a Warrior might put more into agility or strength for example. Ultimately this could lead to a fairly big difference late in the game.

     

    I don't remember that part with Leksur, but I do know that in many streams they mention how this or that ability isn't fully functional yet. At this stage, I wouldn't worry about it not being useful.


    This post was edited by Jothany at March 2, 2020 4:35 PM PST
    • 933 posts
    March 2, 2020 5:42 PM PST

    The way I see it, if the DL can take hits like a warrior, all other tanks would be useless... But I'm guessing that the disparity won't be SO great that any class will be completely discounted and eventually ostrasized.  I believe this is their goal, but quite the feat of balancing.  History of MMOs and math have proven to me that in a "group-centric" game, subtracting the amount of damage received on a constant/reliable manner trumps the unreliable self heal to offset damage taken (due to relying on not missing or being parried/dodged/blocked/OOR/stunned/blind/feared/rooted/knocked down/attacking an immune target/ or the worst of all - RIPOSTED (effectively turning your self heal into taking even more damage)).

    • 492 posts
    March 2, 2020 9:26 PM PST

    Rhelic said:

    however look at the AC on that shield. thats allot of ac to be loosing

    Let's play some hypothetical AC theorycrafting. For warrior specifically, they get a 10% bonus from Shield Mastery when a shield is equipped. So 900ac *.90(remove bonus) = 810ac - 80ac(shield armor) = 730AC (no shield, base armor). If we assume Pantheon does a WoW-style version of Armor being flat damage reduction, then for ease - let's say @ 900ac you have a 40% damage reduction. Which if we round up, would be around 23AC (900 / 40, rounded up) per percent dmg reduced. So w/ shield and shield mastery the warrior is sitting at 900ac with 40% dmg reduction. If you take off the shield, you take off shield mastery dropping them to 730ac and 32% dmg reduction (730ac / 23 rounded up). So for a warrior, the shield double dips and still only changes 8% of overall incoming physical damage. This also doesn't take into account where the curve is for diminishing returns, as you wouldn't want to ever hit 100% mitigation (2250ac in this example) or the game is broken, and they are also at lvl 40/41 with these starting values (who knows how AC scales per level up).

    So yes, for a Warrior dropping the shield would be a significant loss in overall damage mitigation - if - 8% is massive in your book. However if you look at Paladin or even if the Dire Lord could equip a shield, that individual 80AC isn't something worth biting your nails over. That's why I am confident I can go 2HD mace Paladin (Dwarf racial for blunt) and why Dire Lord will be perfectly fine.

     

    P.S. I am not a math wizard so...I gave it a shot.

    • 1825 posts
    March 2, 2020 11:05 PM PST

    Fragile said:

    Rhelic said:

    however look at the AC on that shield. thats allot of ac to be loosing

    Let's play some hypothetical AC theorycrafting. For warrior specifically, they get a 10% bonus from Shield Mastery when a shield is equipped. So 900ac *.90(remove bonus) = 810ac - 80ac(shield armor) = 730AC (no shield, base armor). If we assume Pantheon does a WoW-style version of Armor being flat damage reduction, then for ease - let's say @ 900ac you have a 40% damage reduction. Which if we round up, would be around 23AC (900 / 40, rounded up) per percent dmg reduced. So w/ shield and shield mastery the warrior is sitting at 900ac with 40% dmg reduction. If you take off the shield, you take off shield mastery dropping them to 730ac and 32% dmg reduction (730ac / 23 rounded up). So for a warrior, the shield double dips and still only changes 8% of overall incoming physical damage. This also doesn't take into account where the curve is for diminishing returns, as you wouldn't want to ever hit 100% mitigation (2250ac in this example) or the game is broken, and they are also at lvl 40/41 with these starting values (who knows how AC scales per level up).

    So yes, for a Warrior dropping the shield would be a significant loss in overall damage mitigation - if - 8% is massive in your book. However if you look at Paladin or even if the Dire Lord could equip a shield, that individual 80AC isn't something worth biting your nails over. That's why I am confident I can go 2HD mace Paladin (Dwarf racial for blunt) and why Dire Lord will be perfectly fine.

     

    P.S. I am not a math wizard so...I gave it a shot.

     

    I would advise you against using a 0.9 coefficient to negate a 10% bonus as it doesn't translate over the same results. Use /1.1 instead which is  the opposite of *1.1.

     

    Now AC hasn't been mensionned to be a static damage reduction like it is in most post wow MMO, but to move the odds of beeing hit for less damage without eliminating the risk of beeing hit for higher damage in a streak. See it as a probability "around" a value with a gaussian curve aspect, that makes most odds for you to take X damage instead of Y. On paper that also means Armor will be efficient over an infite number of rolls, but can be inefficient over a small sample because of RNG. I also means as it will be opposed to the ennemy's attack value, different monster will treat your armor differently and some might be more influenced by it, while other might hit you like you were made of paper.

     

    It's an EQ-like armor system, where armor is working like another layer of avoidance.

    • 492 posts
    March 2, 2020 11:40 PM PST

    Yeah the EQ Armor system was wacky. Essentially each attack was a D20 roll against your AC, and the higher AC you had, the higher the mob needed to 'roll' in order to land a max hit. However, I parsed it significantly and on multiple bosses / types / fights / encounters - I found that stacking AC was a minimal gain versus stacking HP, which scales better and works on bad RNG & magical damage. I always ran my parses in comparison to other warriors who opted to stack AC instead. I have always found AC to be such a boring stat, but that's just me.

    Using the math you provided, 900 / 1.1 = 819(ac minus mastery) - 80 (shield) = 739 base ac. (9ac higher or 0.4% dmg difference), but still rounds to 32% in my "scenario." I will have to use that way of doing things going forward. As the variable would of been much higher if the values were also higher, so TY.

    I should note: If Pantheon does lean towards the EQ side of the AC formula, then that will for sure cement me into stacking HP and whatever the 'threat generation' stat is.


    This post was edited by Fragile at March 2, 2020 11:42 PM PST
    • 1825 posts
    March 3, 2020 9:24 AM PST

    If you want to go back to that statement it was during the Tower of the Reckless Wizard stream if I'm not mixing things :

     

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uia9jADhav8&feature=emb_title

     

    If it remains, that should mean the armor might be less than an issue it was foresighted as, HP beeing king and especially good on direlord due to self healing scaling on it. No idea for abilities VS armor for now.

    • 492 posts
    March 3, 2020 9:54 AM PST
    Have a time stamp?
    • 758 posts
    March 3, 2020 11:30 AM PST

    Fragile said:

    Shield Mastery: Passive - Your dedication to shield training grants you a 10% bonus to your overall Armor Class when you have a shield equipped.

    I believe they moved the 20% (that's listed on the class page as: Armor Proficiency) to Shield Mastery and to the bonus resilience increase from AC. Nothing has been 100% confirmed though.

    I'm probably missing something obvious, but I couldn't find that passive Sheild Mastery ability nor the AC bonus to resilience listed anywhere. Are they mentioned in a stream or something?

    • 1825 posts
    March 3, 2020 11:55 AM PST

    Fragile said: Have a time stamp?

     

    Unfortunately no, I have stamped it in my memory almost two years ago but nothing precise overall. I remember they were talking about weapon damage, twinks, and joppa said that the weapon determine the maximum damage you can deal with it, but the odds of it happening would be entirely tied to your skill with it and offensive stats vs defensive stats, making twinks exploit weapon far from their maximum potential.

    • 492 posts
    March 3, 2020 1:09 PM PST
    @Jothany Shield Mastery is from the Cohh warrior Dec stream, when he opens the codex.
    AC bonus to resilience was from the Class Resource newsletter stream, when Joppa was talking about how resilience works.
    • 758 posts
    March 3, 2020 2:07 PM PST

    Thank you.

    • 933 posts
    March 3, 2020 3:29 PM PST

    Fragile said:

    I should note: If Pantheon does lean towards the EQ side of the AC formula, then that will for sure cement me into stacking HP and whatever the 'threat generation' stat is.

    Let me ask you this Fragile... if PRotF does lean toward the EQ AC formula (as well as the hit/miss RNG), do you think any amount of HP stacking would matter on a warrior wearing mail (without disciplines)?  And speaking on the RNG hit/miss of EQ - what do you think about a class that requires deal melee dmg to heal itself in a system where the NPCs block/parry/dodge/riposte?