I played an ogre in EQ and will likely again in Pantheon. I was somewhat disappointed in the two ogre passives that increase ogre damage output. This seems a bit underpowered in a tanking race, while some of the other races had some serious higher powered racial abilities, more in line with their likely classes. I know this means little at this point in time, but it was still a let down.
More damage means more threat, letting the dps classes unload their damage even more. The ogre passives are pretty nice especialy for a warrior that uses banner of onslaught and howl of the warrior. And the direlord can use essence leech increasing their crit chance by 25% last we saw.
Not to mention the extra attack rating (hit chance i assume) from strength. Hit chance for tanks is a god send.
I think Ogre will be a fine tank. Besides benefiting Warrior as Kellie pointed out, that resistance to stun will help a Paladin avoid interrupts to his casting, extra hit chance and crit damage helps all tanks (and all physical DPS).
I've already decided that my Dire Lord will be an Ogre. With Essence Leach increasing crit chance - on a self-healing ability no less -the Ogre's increased crit damage is a perfect addition. DL is already resistant to magic effects, adding in resistance to physical stuns will complement that.
My only worry is that Ogre's racials will be too powerful and have to be scaled back!
MauvaisOeil said:It's interesting because as they are locked to tank or healer roles, theses benefits will not emphasis a DPS role and thus are not imbalanced. The stun is probably a too strong heritage from EQ but at least it's not a permanent immunity so...
Until you can make a rogue Ogre using progeny...that seems like the class that Ogre is best for.
MauvaisOeil said:Kikadurr said: I was Interested in a ogre sham, but I'm wondering if these passives will benefit spells? Think that 5%crit would apply to heals ect?
It's only critical damage as stated, so it won't benefit on heals, but on offensive spells I think.
As a strength based effect I'd be surprised if it worked on spells. Seems more melee based.
Ogre passives are actually too strong imo, they synergize too well particularly with Direlord, I can already see Ogre Direlord meta and gatekeeping. Ogre is one of the only races with no passives that become useless over the long-run of gameplay. If you look at other races, some of their passives (like faction-gain bonuses) are almost worthless in the long-run especially where end-game activities will heavily revolve around combat (and every race will eventually be able to max certain factions).
Some races certainly synergize well with certain classes, but Ogre is so strong with Direlord it's the only race where I feel compelled to play if I want to roll a Direlord, which doesn't feel good. I'd like to see Ogres racials re-worked a bit.
Sicario said:I'd like to see Ogres racials re-worked a bit.
Or instead re-work other races passives! +10 to dagger for halfling(rogues) doesn't seem like much at level 50!
Scaling is needed across the board in my opinion...
Sicario said:Ogre passives are actually too strong imo, they synergize too well particularly with Direlord, I can already see Ogre Direlord meta and gatekeeping. Ogre is one of the only races with no passives that become useless over the long-run of gameplay. If you look at other races, some of their passives (like faction-gain bonuses) are almost worthless in the long-run especially where end-game activities will heavily revolve around combat (and every race will eventually be able to max certain factions).
Some races certainly synergize well with certain classes, but Ogre is so strong with Direlord it's the only race where I feel compelled to play if I want to roll a Direlord, which doesn't feel good. I'd like to see Ogres racials re-worked a bit.
I absolutely agree that the Ogre racial passives are good for melee. But I think the Skar is even better for DL (they'll basically have 5% stronger life gains with the same stats); they're also the only race that can completely nullify some effects of a disposition as well as reduce damage received from it (according to the current info on the class pages any way) - instead of just having advantage. But with that said, some of the racial passives are absolute garbage for classes at end game.
My opinion of the good passives and bad ones:
Good: Dwarf (extra HP) Ogre (25% stun immunity is decent), Skar (extra HP), Elf (Wisdom caster buff), Gnome (assuming mana pools are important), Human (for CHA based classes)
Absolute garbage: Dark Myr, Archai, Halfling
What we don't know yet are the activated abilities (except for the Ogre's Battle Trance).
Sicario said: I can already see Ogre Direlord meta and gatekeeping.Some races certainly synergize well with certain classes, but Ogre is so strong with Direlord it's the only race where I feel compelled to play if I want to roll a Direlord,
Like you and many others, I saw Ogre as THE race for DL at first glance and planned on one for some time, as I posted above.
In the 1½ years since I posted that, I've learned more and changed my mind. I now agree with Darch that Skar has the best Passives for DL. Barring really great Active Racials for Ogre or serious game changes, I'm now planning a Skar Dire Lord. (And personally, I feel a Skar will look MUCH more scary and intimidating than an Ogre.)
Kaynrath said: Or instead re-work other races passives! +10 to dagger for halfling(rogues) doesn't seem like much at level 50!
In some stream, Joppa said that those +10 bonus passives WOULD raise the skill above its cap. So you won't just get to maxed skill quicker, but you may be able to have a 10 pt. higher skill than any Race that doesn't have that bonus. Now what that will mean to actual skill effectiveness, we can only wait to see.
Darch said: My opinion of the good passives and bad ones:
Absolute garbage: Dark Myr, Archai, Halfling
I'm guessing you might not plan to play a Shaman or a Rogue?
Archai is an excellent choice of Passives for a Shaman. Ashen Elf is good too, and many will choose it. But at present, pretty much every known healing ability of the Shaman is based in Water. As well as 2 good offensive abilities. So a Water attuned Archai Shaman will have powerful heals, depending on the strenth of the Attunement Bonus. If I make a Shaman, Archai is my first choice.
For a Rogue who focuses mostly on DPS in a group, Ember Elf looks to be the favorite for sure. But I'm building my Rogue for solo exploring and Harvesting, so I'm choosing Dark Myr. Myr Rogue will be great at Stealth, at detecting Stealthed enemies, and at Perception. (And will be able to dive under water to escape enemies when he gets into trouble)
Jothany said:
Darch said: My opinion of the good passives and bad ones:
Absolute garbage: Dark Myr, Archai, HalflingI'm guessing you might not plan to play a Shaman or a Rogue?
Archai is an excellent choice of Passives for a Shaman. Ashen Elf is good too, and many will choose it. But at present, pretty much every known healing ability of the Shaman is based in Water. As well as 2 good offensive abilities. So a Water attuned Archai Shaman will have powerful heals, depending on the strenth of the Attunement Bonus. If I make a Shaman, Archai is my first choice.
For a Rogue who focuses mostly on DPS in a group, Ember Elf looks to be the favorite for sure. But I'm building my Rogue for solo exploring and Harvesting, so I'm choosing Dark Myr. Myr Rogue will be great at Stealth, at detecting Stealthed enemies, and at Perception. (And will be able to dive under water to escape enemies when he gets into trouble)
That is true, the Archai have good situational passives if you choose accordingly. I plan on going Ashen Elf Shaman because their offensive abilities will be wisdom and nature based as well as I like the idea of an Elf tribesman weilding a spear with a spirit wolf companion. I am interested in the rogue, but I think the Halfling and Dark Myr passives are poor because they basically only benefit the rogue. Most other passives at least benefit multiple classes... I don't want every halfling I see to be a rogue or be otherwise treated as "not meta" (i.e. "oh, there's a halfling warrior and human warrior LFG, the Halflings are trash unless they use a dagger invite the Human.")
Jothany said:In some stream, Joppa said that those +10 bonus passives WOULD raise the skill above its cap. So you won't just get to maxed skill quicker, but you may be able to have a 10 pt. higher skill than any Race that doesn't have that bonus. Now what that will mean to actual skill effectiveness, we can only wait to see.
Can you link where that was said please? I know he said the racial inactive speed increases stacked with all other speed buffs. I don't recall them saying the +10 skill bonus does.
We had a discussion about this in discord awhile back. We guessed the +10 dagger skill bonus from halflings wouldn't stack because that seemed like it might be OP at max skill level after we crunched the numbers. That might be a game changer for rogue race choice if it stacks.
philo said:Can you link where that was said please? I know he said the racial inactive speed increases stacked with all other speed buffs. I don't recall them saying the +10 skill bonus does.
I'm sorry. I really wish I could. I recently had a hard drive die on me (shortly after it was out of warranty, imagine that) and my entire colletion of notes on Pantheon died with it. The drive is at the local shop, in hopes of getting some salvage off of it, so maybe.....
I feel like it was pretty long ago. Possibly as far back as when they revealed the Passives, or else shortly after in one of Joppa's "Burning Questions" segments. I think it was a Dev stream rather than a game stream. My memory is hearing - not seeing - Joppa say "someone asked the question: will the passive bonus take you over skill cap. Yes, it will..." As though he was reading Twitch chat.
If I find it or recover my records, I'll post here.
Darch said: as well as I like the idea of an Elf tribesman weilding a spear with a spirit wolf companion.
I gotta admit that is a pretty cool image. And not at all surprising, considering how important the appearance of DL armor was to you.
We'll have to compare stats every so many levels between my Archai and your Elf.
@Philo - It wouldn't surprise me if the +10 skill bonus went past cap when I look at how EQ worked. The Warrior's base skill caps were significantly (+50) higher than those of the SHD and PAL which made a pretty big difference for many expansions until it was nearly equal. In EQ, 5 points equated to an entire level difference, and the monk had some higher skills than the warrior even. So I wouldn't be surprised with a +10 difference... the other passive bonuses like the efficacy of human's charisma increase of Elf's Wisdom increase could be comparable to a +10 in a skill. I'm just speculating of course but if that is the case, +10 with a specific weapon is a bit underwhelming when other races get bonus to an entire attribute's utilization IMO.
Edit: If it doesn't go above the skill cap, I think it is absolutely useless.
Kaynrath said:Sicario said:I'd like to see Ogres racials re-worked a bit.
Or instead re-work other races passives! +10 to dagger for halfling(rogues) doesn't seem like much at level 50!
Scaling is needed across the board in my opinion...
I don't disagree, many of the passives for other classes could use a re-work.
As for others who have commented on Skar being good for DL, that is also true, but Ogre will still be strongest. Damage output will always outshine increased health in the end-game, and Ogre brings massive damage output synergy for DL. This also translates into increased health gains due to the DL abilities, particularly Bloodstate: Essence Leech.
Have to also keep in mind Ogres get a bonus against a particular disposition as well, so Skar are not unique in that. Overall, Ogre is the strongest race in the game, especially for DL. Having some discrepency with racial passives between races is just fine, but as it stands the gap between Ogre and the other races is just too wide right now. Human and Dark Myr to me seem to be the weakest at the moment.
Kaynrath said:Sicario said:I'd like to see Ogres racials re-worked a bit.
Or instead re-work other races passives! +10 to dagger for halfling(rogues) doesn't seem like much at level 50!
Scaling is needed across the board in my opinion...
As long as that +10 stacks on top of the "cap" for daggers then that is one of the better passives for a rogue. To always be 2 levels higher in your daggers sounds fantastic if like other games it affects hit chance and average damage. Having the effective to-hit ratio of a level 52 player at level 50 sounds ace.