Overall, I think the acclimation system is full of potential. The goal of putting the E back in “player vs environment” is appealing. However, some aspects of the acclimation system as detailed in a recent newsletter remind me of Radiance from Lord of the Rings Online, and that system should serve as a cautionary tale of how NOT to do things.
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/107791-LotRO-Dev-Admits-We-Were-Wrong-About-Radiance
The money quote from a LOTRO dev:
You, the players, hated Radiance. In fact, there has never been such a polarizing and definitively poorly received implementation as Radiance. We struggled to find a way to make this system, which we wanted to rely upon for future raids and content development, work for us. Yet, many issues surrounded our implementation. The benefits it offered proved to be too good, Radiance gear proved to be too easy or too hard to acquire, and exploits plagued of the early days of the Moria instances.
So what was Radiance, why did it suck, and how does it relate to acclimation? I found an excellent post from a LOTRO player explaining the system and its pitfalls. The parallels to acclimation should be apparent. Here is that post
An introduction to Radiance:
Shortly after it was introduced, Radiance was a number stat attached to select pieces of armour. This stat did two things:
- It counteracted "Gloom", which is a general debuff that all characters who entered certain raid instances and/or fought certain bosses experienced. Too much Gloom and not enough Radiance and your character essentially played as if they lost experience levels (up to, I believe, the equivalent of -4 levels.. or the equivalent of a non expiring death penalty). If you went even further below the Gloom threshold your character would stand in place cowering and would only be sporadically controllable. Beating these instances at -4 levels was generally very tough but doable, especially if only a couple members of your group were that low. Beating anything while cowering was, as I'm sure you can imagine, impossible.
- It gave you a "Hope" buff everywhere in the game world. Hope increases all of your stats (in a sense, the opposite of a death penalty to the point where you are, in essence, gaining levels over the level cap). As I'm sure you can imagine, anyone who did not have Radiance was exponentially weaker than those who did, making the game too easy for Rad haves and overly tough for Rad have nots.
Eventually, the LOTRO devs decided to remove the second aspect of Radiance and left it as what amounted to a hard gating mechanism in a game that had never had any sort of gating mechanism. All of the raids that existed before Moria (and the introduction of Rad) could be entered by any player of any level. Sure they would likely be instantly squashed if they were too weak, but the only gate that existed was one of decent gear, appropriate XP level and your ability to learn the instance.
The acquisition of Rad gear, both in it's early and later iterations, required repeatedly grinding non Rad requiring instances so that you could collect the associated piece of Rad gear. This gave you access to "level 2" set of instances that did require some level of Rad to even have a shot of success at.. and you had to grind these repeatedly until you had their Rad reward gear.. at which point you could finally enter the "level 3" instance.
It was claimed by some that this tiering process was a good thing as it forced players to get some competence at high level grouping in certain challenges before being allowed to move onto the next tier. It was still a huge pain but at least it made sense.. until changes were made such that anyone could just grind the same easy and fast non rad instances by keyboard face rolling to acquire enough Rad to advance. Thus totally negating Rad's one saving grace as a sort of competency gauge.
On top of all of this is, potentially, the biggest issue with Radiance: It and it alone is the only way you can even enter high level raids. Any other armour choice in the game was rendered completely useless by this need to have a single specific set of arbitrary gear. In one fell swoop, high level itemization in LOTRO was virtually killed by a single mechanic.
TLDR: Radiance is a hard gating mechanism that forced repetitive grinding where there had never been forced repetitive grinding before. It also killed itemization at higher levels because gear with Radiance on it was literally the only gear you could wear in higher level instances/raids.
Hope that helps. If anyone else has further questions, feel free to ask. :)
Now, obviously there are some key differences between acclimation glyphs and radiance gear. First, acclimation glyphs are their own category separate from traditional gear. And secondly, being tied to climate make it seem less arbitrary than radiance. But the similarities in the way that acclimation serves as a hard-gating mechanism to content is concerning. Also, I’m skeptical of the following statement “the decision of what types of Glyphs to use, where to apply them, and the overall Acclimation score a player needs for the various climate types is the intended strategy of the system”.
So, I have a few suggestions to make the acclimation system feel more organic, less like an arbitrary hard-gating mechanism, and be more immersive/fun/strategic.
First off, make acclimation glyphs an important, but not the overwhelmingly dominant method of dealing with extreme climates. To be fair, other sources of climate mitigation (items/buffs/racials) were mentioned in Joppa’s Behind the Design feature, but I still got the distinct impression that these were intended to be a relatively minor aspect of acclimation compared to the glyphs. They might get you over that last hump, but you would still need high-end acclimation glyphs for certain raids (i.e. semi-hard gating).
I think it would be better to design the acclimation system such that glyphs aren’t necessary at all to survive and do well in almost any extreme climate BUT it takes a significant effort without rare glyphs. That effort would involve
crafting or buying climate protection potions (similar to flasks in WoW)
Equipping and using specific class skills designed to counter extreme climates (opportunity cost vs equipping other skills)
Farming up unique consumable items
Seeking out buffs from various sources in the world.
Building up natural acclimation resistance
In all, it might take hours and hours of preparation to enter an extreme climate for a raid with minimal acclimation glyphs. But as you find more powerful glyphs, it allows you to survive with less and less effort/expense.
Secondly, make the glyphs more interesting than simply having a point score. The acclimation score can still be the primary benefit of the glyph, but adding other effects onto them adds a layer of depth and strategy onto the system. Since glyphs are already specific to certain body parts, they can have effects that pertain to that specific body part. This would go a long way towards making the glyphs seem less arbitrary. For example, the core detriment “Glacial Pace” associated with Frigid Climates’ core detriment has the following effects
• Decreased movement speed
• Decreased attack speed
• Increased casting time
• Increased cooldown time of abilities
Leg glyphs could have bonuses that specifically counteract the movement penalty. The other slots would have similar bonuses [arms (attack speed), head (casting time), and blood (cooldowns)]. A cleric might want his most powerful frigid glyph to go on his head to speed up casting times, while a shaman would be more concerned with cooldowns and thus prioritize a frigid glyph of the body. Anyway, the strategic aspects would now involve thinking about where you get your acclimation glyph points rather than just the total amount.
And lastly, I have a suggestion for an additional extreme climate: Death. I think it would be really cool to have glyphs that can modify various aspects of dying, including modifying the amount of experience returned when you are resurrected up to a hard cap. Clerics would return a greater % than the other healers, but the other healers could still reach the cap with the help of glyphs [note: the person being rezed would need the death glyphs to increase the % return they get. So it's not that shaman and druids would need to use more death glyphs to match clerics, it depends on the person being rezed]. This seems like an elegant way to deal with the discrepancy between rez spells, letting Clerics still have an advantage without making that advantage overwhelming. Furthermore, having glyphs that would be useful everywhere adds some interesting layers of strategy to the system. Finding an epic scorching glyph might let me reach the required acclimation score in a raid with fewer glyph slots, thereby opening up glyphs to be used on death.
other possible death-glyph effects:
1- allowing players to respawn with the items in the slots covered by the death glyph. I.e. a way to counter naked corpse runs at the cost of glyph slots.
2- An out-of-combat run speed buff after dying. Helps get back to corpse faster.
3- A soul-stone like effect (self-rez) on a long cooldown
That acclimation, glyphs, environments, and similar are a key/gating mechanism has been pointed out since they were initially revealed.
Much like resistances, and they have been compared to resistances, this appears to be a or the mechanic to prevent an escorted naked level 1 from reaching the forge or crossing the bridge in Amberfaet, for example.
The only thing left to confirm is whether level has any bearing on the negative effects, and if the mobs that drop the glyphs are open world contested, phased, and/or quest mobs where DTA applies.
Then the real complaining can begin, or not, as the case may be. :)
Zoltar - very good post. I may not agree with everything - how could I with so many things said - but I appreciated it.
Radiance had some fans as well as enemies - naturally. But it was about as unpopular as Zoltar indicates. He is not picking and choosing quotes to make a point. It was abandonned with exceptional speed given its importance to a major expansion. An expansion that was otherwise well received.
But I note that the developers did not conclude that the concept was flawed - they merely concluded that the implementation was highly unpopular.
The most recent expansion of LOTRO - the Mordor expansion - had something often called by experienced players who remembered the Radiance debacle Radiance 2 or Radiance Redux.
Mordor was covered by gloom that imposed a debuff, which got greater and greater as you went deeper in. To combat this gear had a Light that gave an offsetting buff. More useful in Mordor than better gear that lacked the Light.
What had the developers learned? Light gear was not hard to get. Light gear required no grinding. Pretty much ALL gear you got from drops or quests in Mordor had Light. It was not even remotely a barrier to entry. You did not need Light until you got fairly far in so you had plenty of chance to get it from just playing the game normally.
There were fans and enemies as always but no uproar. Use of Light worked generally well. Not perfectly but few things do.
Pantheon fans will not necessarilly react the way LOTRO fans did - different communities.
But we already have some voices saying things like "do it the Light way not the Radiance way". Do not make glyphs a major barrier to entry. Make them a barrier to progress. At first slowing things down a bit, perhaps eventually something absolutely mandatory. Let us in with no glyphs - just do not let us go all the way, Oops did I *say* that?
Let us get glyphs gradually and by normal play. Which is not the same as *easy* play. But do not put an almost mandatory glyph as a 10% drop from a major boss requiring two groups to kill. Something a raid guild can hold hostage. Let us get glyphs from whatever you have for us to do in the zone. If you want especially hard raids or dungeons to require so much glyphing that it is really hard to get - fine. I am no believer in making the hardest content in the game available to everyone regardless of gear. But save this for things you intend to be exceptionally challenging not normal gameplay.
Nothing I said is intended to criticize the glyph system. I am not assuming that it will work as its critics suggest - it may or it may not. I discuss merely one way that it can work that may be desirable.
dorotea said:But I note that the developers did not conclude that the concept was flawed - they merely concluded that the implementation was highly unpopular.
Indeed. And one of my takeaways was that heavily RNG-based gating is generally bad.
Very interesting post, @Zoltar, thanks, and very valid points and concerns.
I gave up with LOTRO not long after I got through Mordor so I only really remember needing Hope in some encounters, but there were Hope clickies that were quite common, so it seemed a nice feature and very immersive, but not too impactful or frustrating.
The Radiance thing sounds like a nice idea done wrong and I think you are right that Acclimation sounds similar, but more complex and interesting.
I have hope from what I've heard about the base ideas of Acclimation that it has the potential to be done well. As pointed out, it is using separate items, so shouldn't mess up itemisation too much. It has different degrees and effects so shouldn't be too much of a hard 'gate'. It doesn't give a buff that might screw up balance in non-acclimated areas, just mitigates climate in some areas.
I do agree that there should be other ways to handle acclimation, though, alongside acclimation items. Buffs and consumables should help fill gaps or shortcomings. Natural and built up acclimation should be possible. If a guild announces a raid in the frigid tundra and I know I don't have enough acclimation, I should have the option of buying a potion and spending a couple of hours there building resistance and then getting a buff just before the raid. Others with many acclimation items would just be able to rock up and play without buying potions or worrying about buffs getting dispelled.
I very much like the idea about different bodypart acclimation items mitigating different acclimation effects! Excellent thought!
And acclimation having effects for more than just surviving environments would be great! Becoming acclimated to death sounds like something @Roenick might benefit from!...
That makes me think that maybe acclimation items should have some (minor) effect in non-climate just to keep them relevant. Maybe anti-cold acclimation would mean speed buffs work better on you and slow debuffs are a little resisted? Anti-anaerobic acclimation might give you more stamina or use less food? Etc.
It's a system that has great possibilities!
I was one of the players who never had trouble getting radiance gear in LOTRO, simply because of my completionist explorer tendencies. By the time anyone bothered to drag me along on a raid I was already sitting over the threshold for radiance without even realizing it - because I had literally gone and done *everything* else in the game first.
But I'm weird - even among "core" gamers.
I have my own opinions on glyphs, but I'm with everyone else I think when I say that I don't like the way they have been presented to us so far, and I think that implementation has the potential to either be toothless, or to be major divisive and un-fun for players. In that sense, it's very comparable to LOTRO's Radiance/Light, and it's a good example to learn from.
Good thread.
Wanted to elaborate on the death glyph idea. First to clarify the rez and then talk about other possible death glyph effects
So, imagine that there is a cap to the % of experience returned from Rez spells. 75% perhaps. Cleric Rez might do 50%, and shaman/druid only 35%. Then you have death glyphs which increase the %. This gives cleric an advantage in exp return, but one that is able to be overcome by using death glyphs. Also, let me emphasize that it's not the rezzer's (cleric/shaman/druid) death glyphs that increase the % of exp returned but rather the player being rezed.
Additionally, the glyphs might give a chance for you to keep your equipped items when you die (the items in the slots matching where the glyphs is). This addresses the naked corpse run issue. With high end death glyphs, you would keep all your items when you die. But it comes at a cost of not being able to use the glyphs for climate acclimation. Of course that goes back to having alternative methods to acclimate to extreme climates. You could put forth the effort to prepare for a harsh climate via other methods and keep your death glyphs, or you could choose to rely on your climate glyphs and accept the risk of having to do a naked corpse run or not get the full 75% exp rez.
Excellent post Zoltar. I agree when you said "Overall, I think the acclimation system is full of potential. The goal of putting the E back in “player vs environment” is appealing. "
I absulately love the ideal of how it does away with carrying mulitiple sets of armor. I was never a fan of taking up space in my inventory to carry situational gear. From my understanding glyphs will do away with this.
I also like the way VR is using it ( glyphs ) as one way to keep crafting viable. Now I have to say I also love the way VR is trying to be creative. That is one thing I enjoyed about EQ and LOTRO. They were never afraid to come up with creative solutions to answer a situation at hand. They also read feedback from the players and adjusted as needed without sacrificing the integrity of the game.
My concern is how closely the acclimation / glyph system falls into the category of a "keying system". My fear is that this is a slippery slope ( an idea or course of action which will lead to something unacceptable,wrong, or disastrous ). I remeber when I was early in my career when Plane of Power ( PoP ) came out in EQ. They broke it up into teirs ( A.K.A. a keying system ). Every time my guild would raid a zone in a lower tier so they can gain access to the next tier. I almost always had to pull duty and work all night. Needless to say I fell behind in my progression to the higher tiers and I was never able to catch up. So from these memories I have bad feeling towards a keying system. I can give many more examples of bad experiences with the keying system, but I see no reason to kick this horse anymore.
I just wanted to add that one concern I have with the acclimation / glyphs system.
Hi Zoltar.
I never played LoTRO, but I liked your explanation of radiance, and tbh I liked the first version, it felt *hard* the radiance redux felt a little like- alternate currency or get the stuff you need in the place where you need it, which I don't like so much. Because what do you do with the old currency?
Then I read Nephele's comment about how she explored and randomly did stuff and by the time she got there- whoops! looks like she was all radiantly acclimated 'n stuff dare I say- from being casual about it or rather, from allowing herself to be immersed in the world and the first thing that came to my mind was:
Magic: The Gathering, White Weenie Decks
A strategy stumbled upon, but effective, that adhered to the core tennent of the game design being that creatures are the main things that will win the duel.
Nephele serendipitously played in the white weenie way and found herself more than prepared when she went into Mordor. Likewise other players can play the big game, or the Red game and go for the large wins, the heavy direct damage, the big explosions, the tight top-end raid guild playerbase and grab the top acclimation glyphs, and find themselves on even ground in mordor with nephele, they with their Lava filled Great Scuta, and Nephele with her thousands of myriad fairies enough to rival the firmament with points of light.
or family style, spending time crafting, harvesting, "green" , merchandising factioning and their acclimation is weak and never gets strong, but like farming the harvest always comes, the acclimation never wavers, its always there like mushrooms it constantly regenerates albeit at a slow pace, never gets great but never dissipates, always a cycle- even in death there is life blah-blah.
Not to copy MTG exactly but to Zoltars point, in the form of potions or consumables.
As far as different body parts to different areas, fully on board, I had mentioned something similar, earlier.
Zoltan,
i really like your write up. I never played LOTRO and At first I wasnt to sure about your death glyph idea, but the more I thought on it the more I liked it. I agree there is so much we dont know about climates and atmospheres, I sure wish Kilsin could weigh in, but we’ll Find out when Project Faerthal happens I guess.
