In reading the three signature character's stories we have so far, it struck me that there seems to be a theme that runs through all of them. The transference or retention of one class's or race's skills and/or abilities to another class/race over the course of their life. It brought to mind the progeny system. Anyone else notice this or have thoughts?
If you want a more detailed explanation, I wrote about it here. https://pantheondiscovered.squarespace.com/blog/Progeny
I appreciate the thought process. Maybe that is what is being presented? Hard to say.
The ogre one seems a bit odd. What class would they have been before becoming a direlord? Are you suggesting they were a direlord twice in a row and that is why they are described as becoming more direlord and less ogre?
Is Bel-Iris a female Archai? She doesn't look human. Seeing as how there are limited racial options that can be those 2 classes.
If that is the way progeny ends up, where class choice is limted by race as has been suggested in the limited info we received on progeny, it makes picking a race matter much more so over the long run. I can see a time down the line where people are disappointed in the race they chose because of the available progeny options.
Does that ^ make humans much more desirable? Humans will always have all of the progeny options.
@Therek- well if these are just musings, they are well pondered. Pantheon staff have made it clear that they do drop hints.
I really like the idea that the Progeny system could be a subtle way to either deepen your class (by choosing the same class again) or to broaden your character (by choosing a different class).
Likewise, race would truly matter as it would define your eventual options.
Pantheon wants choices to be meaningful, this would definitely accomplish that goal.
I noticed this same thing on Thaeolyn: I wrote about it in another post. I'll paste it:
Thaeolyn's story was interesting. When She was "brought by ship to Thronefast" was that a direct route or did they river boat her from Ru'lun port?! If direct did they go North and dodge icebergs as they rounded The Seven Locked Door or did they go allllll the way around Wild's End and Veil of Azeris? ( fun stuff to think about) Quote: "Having proven her worth, Thaeolyn now commands a troop of Dythiir's Hand, defending the White Gate, a pass in the Roan border. She is a fierce and loyal commander, changing course from that of a rogue to a front of the line warrior, though still retaining the knacks of her previous life." Did you just reveal a tidbit of PROGENY?!?! Specifically "changing course from Rogue to Warrior" "retaining knacks of her 'previous life'" things that make you go, hmmm..
i thought it was Progeny info as well.
maybe, maybe not
Interesting, but the knife-edge problem of the mechanic remains, regardless of the hints, details, or implementation.
Either it's percieved to be required, or IS required, due to extreme value..
Or
It's not worth doing at all, because it has no value.
There isn't any in-between for such a mechanic. The threshold for such things is as little as 5% (of any stat), or one additional equipment slot worth of power.
That's all it takes for it to be perceived as required, or actually being required, because all content will be balanced based on max progeny (or progeny x 5, or whatever other thing).
I understand their intent, yet.. I am filled with dread if it actually is implemented "well" enough, because it's one of those things where the time investment can't be rolled back without a significantloss of subscribers. And yet, nerfing it (if it IS powerful) is almost a certainty.
"Perceived value" is a hollow argument. Levels, spells/abilities, gear, AAs etc. all have value that can be perceived in various ways by players and will have content that is balanced against. This is no different.
((Either it's percieved to be required, or IS required, due to extreme value..
Or
It's not worth doing at all, because it has no value.))
I wonder how many of us feel this way? That anything that adds clear value even if only a small amount needs to be done even if it takes scores or hundreds of hours of extra time. Time which could be spent doing other things which might also add value. In other words - any value at all constitutes "extreme value" because there is no point in playing if you don't do every single thing which can make you even very marginally stronger.. With no room in the mindset for anything between extreme value and no value - the only two options specified.
I can see how Progeny would be a curse with a view like that - a system possibly forcing a complete replay of the game with a new character on someone that only wants to get to the most powerful level and then smooth out rough spots and add any additonal skills and gear the game permits.
I am not criticizing that view - it is very different indeed from my own but goes well with the type of person that wants to have one character and for that one character to be the premier high-end raider or pvp player. Just thinking of how playstyle so dramatically alters one's view of Progeny which I consider a system that could have wonderful potential. My view is perhaps less logical than vjek's - I look forward to Progeny despite knowing that I will have quite a few characters and not push any of them to be one of the best in the game. So logically Progeny would be far more of a waste of time to an altoholic that doesn't care much about that last 5% of value. Yet I expect to use it.
Therek - good post - I read the stories but never focused on the details that much - Progeny may be exactly what the writers were trying to put in them.
@vjek- I am not a min/maxer, never have been. So your post came off as falsely bifurcated to me.
@Dorotea- thanks for providing some context to vjek’s concern. I understand his concern now.
Of course, without an official announcement, this is all speculation, but I appreciate the thoughtfulness of it all.
" ... This is no different. "
From my perspective, the difference is the time investment. Very few, if any other, current publicly revealed mechanics have the express, sole, or primary purpose of being max-level sinks.
As such, it could consume hundreds of hours per Progeny run through. If you attempt to balance that, every negative adjustment will lose you subscribers.
It's not like, " oh, they balance adjusted a skill or a spell. " No, they just balance adjusted 500-1500 hours of my time investment. That never goes well.
Also, if it is adjusted downwards in efficacy, then it starts to or stops justifying the reason for it's existence. Then all the time is seen as "wasted" and now, from the perspective of all the customers that actually used the mechanic, all you've done is "betray" them. If you adjust it upwards, then all you do is alienate or "insult" the other customers that didn't participate because it was originally seen as (or mathematically) not good enough.
The time investment amplifies the emotional investment, and as a result, the emotional response. If you look back at the past 20+ years of large balance adjustments to mechanics that required huge time investments (like Progeny must, to justify it's existence at all), the one thing they all have in common is: You lose a ton of customers. Often? Permanently.
If this is a mechanic designed to hook and hold the target demographic, that group contains at least some players of EQ1, who were willing to put insane amounts of time into mechanics like this. I'm not sure I want to see " LFM: +250 Scorching, Progeny 5 required ", or " Guild recruiting, Progeny 5 required ", (to have the +25% max hit points to even attempt multi-group content) but maybe that's inevitable.
Vjek is quite correct that if, through the Progeny system you gain some bonus to stats/whatever where Progeny1 compared to Original is technically better, and Progeny2 compared to Progeny1 is even better, content must be developed with the assumption that everyone will have whatever best Progeny(X) is available at that time. It then does become a requirement, regardless of the time committment involved. Time itself is never a balancing factor. Ever.
philo said:I appreciate the thought process. Maybe that is what is being presented? Hard to say.
The ogre one seems a bit odd. What class would they have been before becoming a direlord? Are you suggesting they were a direlord twice in a row and that is why they are described as becoming more direlord and less ogre?
Is Bel-Iris a female Archai? She doesn't look human. Seeing as how there are limited racial options that can be those 2 classes.
If that is the way progeny ends up, where class choice is limted by race as has been suggested in the limited info we received on progeny, it makes picking a race matter much more so over the long run. I can see a time down the line where people are disappointed in the race they chose because of the available progeny options.
Does that ^ make humans much more desirable? Humans will always have all of the progeny options.
All good points. The Arak’amel story is definitely the weakest link in the chain, but what I suggest is that perhaps his change is in race rather than class. From an Ogre to something else. Physically he takes on traits similair to an Archai (the pale skin, inscribed red runes on his body, etc.). Perhaps the progeny system will allow you to carry over a racial ability? Bel-Iris is a female Archai. Archai can be monks and wizards, so it would fit with those limitations. I agree that depending on how it is implemented, the race/class limitations could have greater significance in the long run.
vjek said:" ... This is no different. "
From my perspective, the difference is the time investment. Very few, if any other, current publicly revealed mechanics have the express, sole, or primary purpose of being max-level sinks.
As such, it could consume hundreds of hours per Progeny run through. If you attempt to balance that, every negative adjustment will lose you subscribers.
It's not like, " oh, they balance adjusted a skill or a spell. " No, they just balance adjusted 500-1500 hours of my time investment.
It isn't necessary to explain. I just accept it and think it is ok. It isn't different imo.
The original lvling process is the same or longer time investment. Raids/epic weapons/gear grinds/time sinks may all be the same or longer time investment.
Ill use an example of something Pantheon is doing that I don't like:
I'm not a fan of the way we will have to collect 100 different armor pieces that aren't as good as our "primary" armor piece in order to acclimate to the various climates.
Resist gear isn't fun. Being forced to remove your "best" gear and wear "lesser" armor for a single encounter isn't fun. Camping for hundreds of hours to attain gear that is the same or not as good as your main gear, but you need it or you can't participate in an encounter, isn't fun.
That ^ being said, I understand why they do it. (That is a whole other conversation but hopefully you understand why it is implemented that way)
I realize I am not required to camp that resist gear. Participating in those raid encounters that require it is optional if I don't want to put in the time to do it.
Therek said:philo said:I appreciate the thought process. Maybe that is what is being presented? Hard to say.
The ogre one seems a bit odd. What class would they have been before becoming a direlord? Are you suggesting they were a direlord twice in a row and that is why they are described as becoming more direlord and less ogre?
Is Bel-Iris a female Archai? She doesn't look human. Seeing as how there are limited racial options that can be those 2 classes.
If that is the way progeny ends up, where class choice is limted by race as has been suggested in the limited info we received on progeny, it makes picking a race matter much more so over the long run. I can see a time down the line where people are disappointed in the race they chose because of the available progeny options.
Does that ^ make humans much more desirable? Humans will always have all of the progeny options.
All good points. The Arak’amel story is definitely the weakest link in the chain, but what I suggest is that perhaps his change is in race rather than class. From an Ogre to something else. Physically he takes on traits similair to an Archai (the pale skin, inscribed red runes on his body, etc.). Perhaps the progeny system will allow you to carry over a racial ability? Bel-Iris is a female Archai. Archai can be monks and wizards, so it would fit with those limitations. I agree that depending on how it is implemented, the race/class limitations could have greater significance in the long run.
I thought of that possibility but Archai cant be DLs. I think it is more likely that progeny ends up being restricted by race as was mentioned. VR has always advertised the progeny character as the original characters offspring, next of kin.
If so, racial restriction could very easily change down the line. I have played a couple games with systems similar to progeny that allow for a racial change in addition to a class change but that is not the narrative we have been given here.
Since the progeny character is the older characters "offspring", if we are keeping to the narrative and they allowed racial changes, it would seem like that would open the door for half-breed races. Maybe that could become a thing multiple expansions down the road?
((content must be developed with the assumption that everyone will have whatever best Progeny(X) is available at that time. It then does become a requirement, regardless of the time committment involved. Time itself is never a balancing factor. Ever.))
This may be correct but I think it assumes a common design philosophy with more "mundane" MMOs and that may not be the case.
Consider that the focus on Pantheon is grouping and exploring and the world itself - not raiding or "endgame:. Albeit with some raids just as there will be some soloable content.
Perhaps VR will design the content for the typical player with decent gear but not the best - decent skills but not the best - a decent choice of race and class but not the best. Seems reasonable to me - this will be the bulk of the subscriotion base.
Maybe they will be quite content for the people that play many extra hours grinding out marginal improvements - whether through endless grinding for gear or through progenization - to simply have an easier time of it. Rather than designing any content at all for the top 5% specifically.
dorotea said:((content must be developed with the assumption that everyone will have whatever best Progeny(X) is available at that time. It then does become a requirement, regardless of the time committment involved. Time itself is never a balancing factor. Ever.))
This may be correct but I think it assumes a common design philosophy with more "mundane" MMOs and that may not be the case.
Consider that the focus on Pantheon is grouping and exploring and the world itself - not raiding or "endgame:. Albeit with some raids just as there will be some soloable content.
Perhaps VR will design the content for the typical player with decent gear but not the best - decent skills but not the best - a decent choice of race and class but not the best. Seems reasonable to me - this will be the bulk of the subscriotion base.
Maybe they will be quite content for the people that play many extra hours grinding out marginal improvements - whether through endless grinding for gear or through progenization - to simply have an easier time of it. Rather than designing any content at all for the top 5% specifically.
First I want to thank the OP Therek for finding and sharing this info, yes I understand it may or may not be a thing. but it sounds like a good case to me and fit's in line with what I hope Progeny will be. I do hope it includes some abilitys that obviously some min maxers will consider "required". Whatever, they (like you said that 5%) will just need to get over it.
The benifit's of a system like this would be overwhelming.
They have said that a WarWizard will not be a playable race, they did not say Warriors will never know how to chuck an occasinal Fireball.
Zorkon said:They have said that a WarWizard will not be a playable race, they did not say Warriors will never know how to chuck an occasinal Fireball.
Zork is right, In case anyone is interested in the tiny bit of info about warwizards we have received...
old quote from Brad about war wizards:
1. The player will encounter WarWizards, usually on an epic-level quest. They will assist the WarWizard, and the WarWizard may assist them in certain battles.
2. In some epic-level quests, the player's character will temporarily (so as not to cause a balance problem) be able to assume the abilities of a WarWizard and access spells and abilities usually not accessible by that character's class.
In response to the OP, I think you see information where there is none, possibly because he likes that feature and is eager to have new information about it.
Kilsin already said that they were not prepared to give information about the progeny and that until they released new information the discursions would be sterile since they are based on expeculations and not on real information.
The stories of the 3 characters are literary or artistic licenses to be fantastic
It reminds me a lot of when the video of the last wow expansion came out
there was a great battle between the horde and the alliance the leader of the alliance (priest) wore a plate armor and his father's sword (warrior) in the video at the beginning he fought like a warrior and in the end he used sacred healing skills
people started expeculating in the forums if he had changed class if he was now a warrior if he was a paladin or a new warrior / priest class
it happened in such a way that the dev had to say that he was a priest and nothing had changed
Elki said:In response to the OP, I think you see information where there is none, possibly because he likes that feature and is eager to have new information about it.
Certainly possible, and yes on both counts. I’m not really speculating on the mechanics of the system, so much as just highlighting similair information. Take it for what you will.