Forums » The Paladin

"Evil" Paladin

    • 41 posts
    August 8, 2019 9:19 AM PDT

    I notice that the "gods" of many religions today seem to be bloodthirsty.  With that in mind, I think that the Paladin's abilities should vary depending on their deity.  Assuming there are multiple to choose from.  I saw a post that the Paladin gets "free heals" using their wrath.  I think a Paladin who worships one of those bloodthirsty gods might have their healing coming from the blood of their enemies versus a spell they actively cast.  

    • 2562 posts
    August 8, 2019 9:49 AM PDT

    That would be the DireLord.  That class uses 'blood stances' with many abilities causing bleeding.

    • 91 posts
    October 17, 2019 10:54 AM PDT

    Hello Mirthosium,

    This is a very interesting topic and has been debated on this forum before. Contrary to the views of many casual players, or people new to the genre, there is such a thing as an "evil" paladin in most lore.

    A Paladin does not draw his power from his morality, but rather from his devotion to his cause and his belief.

    For historical context, The Inquisition or Al'Qaeda both posess a religious fanaticism and are "pure" in their conviction - even if to us it is sick and misguided.

    For gaming reference, the "Paladin" was able to fall anywhere on the alignment spectrum of 1980's PNP Roleplaying games like Warhammer and Dungeons and Dragons. Lawful Good, and Lawful Evil being two common choices. This is different from a Death Knight or Anti-Paladin, which many people mistakenly assume when they hear "Evil Paladin".

    In more modern times, we have the "Oathbreaker" paladin from 2015 DND, and the Blood Elf Paladin from Blizzard's World of Warcraft.

    • 1320 posts
    October 18, 2019 1:58 PM PDT

    @Dulu - yep.

    But as of now, PRotF is going with the Dire Lord as their "Evil" flavored tank.  As mentioned before, this is a topic that has been (and will likely continue to be) the proverbial "beaten dead horse".  I was actuall accused of "being political" when making a comment similar to yours in regard to Al'Qaeda.  But there likely won't be an "evil Paladin", however there could be an "evil" plate wearing class in a future expansion. - I wouldn't bank on it though (unless they gave the DL plate)  :(

    • 91 posts
    October 18, 2019 3:47 PM PDT

    Darch said:

    @Dulu - yep.

    But as of now, PRotF is going with the Dire Lord as their "Evil" flavored tank.  As mentioned before, this is a topic that has been (and will likely continue to be) the proverbial "beaten dead horse".  I was actuall accused of "being political" when making a comment similar to yours in regard to Al'Qaeda.  But there likely won't be an "evil Paladin", however there could be an "evil" plate wearing class in a future expansion. - I wouldn't bank on it though (unless they gave the DL plate)  :(



    A characters alignment has nothing to do with their class.

    • 1320 posts
    October 19, 2019 6:03 AM PDT

    Dulu said:

    Darch said:

    @Dulu - yep.

    But as of now, PRotF is going with the Dire Lord as their "Evil" flavored tank.  As mentioned before, this is a topic that has been (and will likely continue to be) the proverbial "beaten dead horse".  I was actuall accused of "being political" when making a comment similar to yours in regard to Al'Qaeda.  But there likely won't be an "evil Paladin", however there could be an "evil" plate wearing class in a future expansion. - I wouldn't bank on it though (unless they gave the DL plate)  :(



    A characters alignment has nothing to do with their class.

    Yep... I just agreed with you - again.  PRotF is not using "alignment" or even lore to select their class/race restrictions, they are using balance (or more like imbalance) to make sure that there are enough warrior tanks and cleric healers to support end game content.  If they made the dire lord too desirable or the paladin more accessible, there would be fewer warriors... likewise for the healers.

    • 127 posts
    March 15, 2021 2:08 AM PDT

    Dulu said:

    A characters alignment has nothing to do with their class.

    I actually disagree, the term paladin in games refers more often that not to a paragon of Good, Law and Justice and, in a game with alignement system, they are always forced to be Good/Lawful good. And they are restricted to choose a good aligned gods as well.

    If Pantheon chooses to do differently and make Paladin able to be evil, then:
    1. It's rare because the conotation of the name Paladin is tighly woven with the idea of an idealistically good Knight.
    2. I'd ask why they chose that name instead of Templar/Crusader/Hospitalier, etc.

    For the question of morality vs faith, you can see in litterature or movies the Knight that follows a certain faith but doesn't condone certain practice of their faith. That may lead to some religious leader (inquisitor?) to question the faith of said Knight eventually.

    That, is to me, the Paladin. Pious and devoted to his faith but not at the cost of his morale code.


    This post was edited by Khraag at March 15, 2021 12:08 PM PDT
    • 1320 posts
    March 15, 2021 3:06 PM PDT

    @Khraag - Paladin is just a knight or champion of a cause.  Perception of that "cause" determines who is "good" and who is "evil".  A "terrorist" is perceived as "evil" and a "hero" is perceived as good by everyone - the part that is changed by perception is who is the hero and who is the terrorist in each event.  

    • 127 posts
    March 15, 2021 4:31 PM PDT

    No, the Paladin is more than a Knight otherwise you'd just call it a Knight.
    The term Paladin brings more to the Character to just a knight or a champion, that's why his name specifically is Paladin.
    I'm not inventing it, check the game that popularized the Paladin, D&D, ... you'll see. Even if you refer outside of games terminology, is has evolved to mean a chivalrous hero, hence someone fighting for the good.

    And the debate saying "If you're on the receiving end of the paladin action you'd think he's evil". That makes absolutely no sense. It's like saying a mass murderer thinks the police is evil because they are hunting him.

    The perception on what good and evil isn't define by one individual at a specific moment because if you do, it's Chaos and nothing is evil and nothing is good at the same time. And that's not how we define morality in our society.


    This post was edited by Khraag at March 15, 2021 4:59 PM PDT
    • 1320 posts
    March 15, 2021 8:23 PM PDT

    @Khragg - D&D didn't invent the Paladin... D&D borrowed lore from historical and biblical events & stories (which is where the reputation of devil worshiping came from - using devils and demons from the Bible).  The Paladins were knights of Charlemagne's court.  They were actually made popular when compared to the famous story of the "Knights of the Round Table"... and D&D's "Holy Avenger" was a ripoff of excalibur.  As a matter of fact, I believe one of the Paladin iterations was called the Cavaleir (I've played D&D since the early 90's).

    Mass murderers/serial killers often don't think their actions are evil... and sometimes think they are performing acts of justice or kindness or killing for some greater purpose/cause.

    Some people in our world that are considered terrorists by some get their messages from their bible before they blow themselves up to kill the evil enemy in order to go to heaven... you are correct that morality is determined by a society, but there are multiple societies - especially when those societies are socially excluded from one another... let alone come from different planets.

     


    This post was edited by Darch at March 15, 2021 8:51 PM PDT
    • 127 posts
    March 16, 2021 3:24 AM PDT

    Darch said:

    @Khragg - D&D didn't invent the Paladin... D&D borrowed lore from historical and biblical events & stories (which is where the reputation of devil worshiping came from - using devils and demons from the Bible).  The Paladins were knights of Charlemagne's court.  They were actually made popular when compared to the famous story of the "Knights of the Round Table"... and D&D's "Holy Avenger" was a ripoff of excalibur.  As a matter of fact, I believe one of the Paladin iterations was called the Cavaleir (I've played D&D since the early 90's).

    Dude you don't even read what I write.
    I know about the Charlemagne's closest fighters I specifically wrote EVEN IF YOU REFER OUTSIDE OF GAME TERMINOLOGY (and the word doesn't even originate from Charlemagne's fighters either, it was used before in Rome. In France the Origin of the Knight is still debated and many say knights only started in the 11th century, WAY after Charlemagne's reign, so no, Charlemagne's Paladins weren't knights. And yes I have history books beside me to back it up you want the reference I can give them to you in private message. I hope you know how to read French).
    AND I wrote the Game that POPULARIZED the Paladin, I never said it created it. DON'T MAKE ME say things I never wrote. Forcing words that never were in my post, that's dirty man.
    - You can even verify my edit of the previous post was hours before your reply, so I didn't change it afterward -.

    Charlemagne's Fighters were made famous with "La chanson de Roland", not The Knights of the round table.
    The Knights of the round table text made knighthood popular.

    Plus who uses the term Paladin thinking about Charlemagne's Fighters, or a Roman Chamberlain/Royal Guard nowadays? I purposefully wrote that the word has EVOLVED to mean a fighter for good.

    Me too I've been playing DND since the 90's what is that argument about? It's nonsense.
    Even in DnD 1st Edition when they added the Paladin in Greyhawk supplement, The paladin had to be Lawful (there was only 3 alignements, Lawful, Neutral, Chaotic at first) and seek to do good.
    (always doing lawful deeds, for any chaotic act will immediately revoke the status of paladin, and it can never be regained. The paladin has a number of very powerful aids in his continual seeking for good)
    In AD&D you had to be Lawful Good.

    And as for the Knights of the round Table story, those Knight were expected to follow a strict code of conduct hence those knights they were aspiring or should aspire to do good. Even if not all succeeded. AD&D mentions in the description to envision the Paladin. They specifically mention those Knights of the round table that follow those ideals of Justice, righteousness, good, etc. To tell you THOSE ONE are Paladin, the good ones are paladin, not the others, not every Knight is a Paladin.

    Darch said: "Mass murderers/serial killers often don't think their actions are evil... and sometimes think they are performing acts of justice or kindness or killing for some greater purpose/cause.

    Well that's my point, not sure what you're trying to add here. My point is, one individual point of view has not hold on what we (the majority of the people on the world) consider good or bad.

    Darch said:Some people in our world that are considered terrorists by some get their messages from their bible before they blow themselves up to kill the evil enemy in order to go to heaven... you are correct that morality is determined by a society, but there are multiple societies - especially when those societies are socially excluded from one another... let alone come from different planets.

    You are straying far from the path. You talk about Religious fanatism. Yeah you can manipulate people to make them do atrocities and making them believe it's for good. But nobody else sees that as good it's not about a different society. In any case, I won't go in a debate on that topic it's not the place for it.

    Anyway, back to the original topic of my reply. You can always try and find some exceptions, and every game can have their version of the Paladin. Simply the term Paladin encompasses an ideallistic view of the Good fighter.  In correlation, the Paladin class is tighly woven with a specific alignement or code of conduct, even when said game has no alignement system.
    And that's why there are so many topics on the subject. If the Paladin wasn't such a strong synonym of the Paragon of Good, there wouldn't be so many threads about divergent ideology of the class.
    The fact that the topic is always brought back is actually what shows that the Paladin is seen as such by most.

    In any case I've said all that I could on the topic.

    Should Pantheon's take on the Paladin only be a Fanatical religious fighter, that's fine but there again, I'd argue it's the wrong name for the class. As mentioned previously, Crusader or Templar would be much more fitting for that description.


    This post was edited by Khraag at March 17, 2021 3:52 AM PDT
    • 2063 posts
    March 16, 2021 10:43 AM PDT

    3 points that I think have bearing here.

     

    1. The only races that can be Paladin (currently) come from the 'Good' and 'Neutral' continents. None from the 'Evil' one.

    2. VR has made statements in the past suggesting they are moving away from characterizing the factions as Good, Neutral, Evil. Not that they wish to move away from faction as a game mechanic, just that they don't intend to make the 'Good vs. Evil' theme such a significant part of the Class identity.

    3. There will never be full agreement on what a given class "should" be. Enjoy theorycrafting, but it's pointless to get too invested in it.

     

    In the real life, Templars and Crusaders had the mantle of being "Fighters for Good" when they existed, just as much as a Paladin wears the name in the cliche today. And it is far more of a PR story than a vocation, then and now.

     

     

    • 127 posts
    March 16, 2021 1:34 PM PDT

    @Jothany Honestly the main reason I got into this reply is mostly because I was misquoted and I won't let other ppl making me say thing I didn't.

    • 1320 posts
    March 16, 2021 2:58 PM PDT

    @Khraag - so to use all of your D&D rhetoric as an example... is there no such thing as an "anti-Paladin" or "Blackguard"?  But regardless, some of the races aren't being considered "good" or "evil" according to VR.  I agree that VR should go with a different name for Paladin since they aren't even holy knights, they are just martial clerics... but many of their classes should have different names.  The Bard is expected to wear light plate and dual wield... Druids are nothing what I think of when I think Druid... and I think of Shaman as strictly tribal/uncivilized... not coming from Thronefast.


    This post was edited by Darch at March 16, 2021 3:08 PM PDT
    • 127 posts
    March 16, 2021 3:35 PM PDT

    @Darch Well of course you can have anti-Paladin, the name clearly state the exact opposite of what the Paladin stands for. And I actually love those antagonistic classes. And in those classes again, their alignement is defined by the class itself.
    That's different from saying I'm Paladin but evil. Sorry no, if you're evil you're not a Paladin. You can call yourself however else you want but you're not a Paladin.

    As a fun side note, The AD&D rule discouraged using Anti-Paladin in the Paladin's Handbook supplement. (From the book: "[...] we discourage the use of anti-paladins. [...] The paladin originates from a tradition of dynamic balance, in which the forces of good are few and elite and in which forces of evil are numerous and of lesser quality. Allowing anti-paladins blurs this basic relationship")

    Pretty weak argument from them, and then in 3rd edition they changed their mind and added the prestige class of blackguard as you mention.


    This post was edited by Khraag at March 16, 2021 4:04 PM PDT
    • 127 posts
    March 16, 2021 3:44 PM PDT

    *I keep quoting my post instead of editing that's annoying*


    This post was edited by Khraag at March 16, 2021 3:45 PM PDT
    • 258 posts
    December 17, 2021 7:06 PM PST

    I agree with everything Khraag said. Even though I'm becoming more familar with Pantheon's version of a Paladin, my mind is conditioned to see Paladins as defined in AD&D because that is how I was introduced to the word as a kid and that's how I always defined the word/class. Also how it was defined in WoW which solidified my understanding.(I never played Horde, so whatever those blasphemer Blood Elves represented was anathema to me...lol.)

    Paladins are Protectors of the weak...having a high moral code...paragons against evil, chaos and wanton destruction...Lightbringers...holy warriors etc. That's how I will be playing them in Pantheon even though they are not defined as strictly as that. Their fierce opposition against undead is enough for me to see them in that light(pun intended).

    • 1320 posts
    January 11, 2022 8:54 PM PST

    Dikenzu said:

    Paladins are Protectors of the weak...having a high moral code...paragons against evil, chaos and wanton destruction...Lightbringers...holy warriors etc. That's how I will be playing them in Pantheon even though they are not defined as strictly as that. Their fierce opposition against undead is enough for me to see them in that light(pun intended).

    I agree that those qualities embody the sterotypical modern MMO Paladin, but none of those qualities are dependent upon one's race though...  

    That being said, the MMO Paladin is fictional, so we can RP them however we like.  But Paladins are actually real and have very little to do with the MMO interpretation other than being champions of a cause (regardless of the societal moral opinion of said cause (i.e. good or evil)). 

    Then take into consideration that the PRotF Paladin has thrown away their rigid religious practices in favor of vengeance and hatred, and you actually have the antithesis of a "high moral code - paragon against wanton destruction etc etc".   One could argue that killing living beings out of vengeance or hatred is inherently evil.  Or what happens if the paragon against evil groups with other players that want the Paladin to commit evil acts... like invading another's home to kill them and see if they have any money or items you like?  Are you still Role Playing or throwing your convictions to wind?   ;)

     

     

    • 258 posts
    February 16, 2022 1:27 AM PST

    Darch said:

    Dikenzu said:

    Paladins are Protectors of the weak...having a high moral code...paragons against evil, chaos and wanton destruction...Lightbringers...holy warriors etc. That's how I will be playing them in Pantheon even though they are not defined as strictly as that. Their fierce opposition against undead is enough for me to see them in that light(pun intended).

    I agree that those qualities embody the sterotypical modern MMO Paladin, but none of those qualities are dependent upon one's race though...  

    That being said, the MMO Paladin is fictional, so we can RP them however we like.  But Paladins are actually real and have very little to do with the MMO interpretation other than being champions of a cause (regardless of the societal moral opinion of said cause (i.e. good or evil)). 

    Then take into consideration that the PRotF Paladin has thrown away their rigid religious practices in favor of vengeance and hatred, and you actually have the antithesis of a "high moral code - paragon against wanton destruction etc etc".   One could argue that killing living beings out of vengeance or hatred is inherently evil.  Or what happens if the paragon against evil groups with other players that want the Paladin to commit evil acts... like invading another's home to kill them and see if they have any money or items you like?  Are you still Role Playing or throwing your convictions to wind?   ;)

     

     

     

    Despite my comments, I'm not a 'role-player' in that commonly used game sense. I won't put a qualifier on what I am just yet, becasue I know how folks can use your words against you to make a point. As far as the game is concerned though(not really concerned with the depths of it's 'Real Life' origins, although I have read up on it before. I primarily see Paladin in the gameplay sense becasue no real world scenario exists for me to take it that seriously), I thought I read(without me looking it up) that the PRotF Paladin's vengence and hatred was directed towards undead. In WoW I never played Horde becasue of my initial D&D background of orcs being 'evil'. In Pantheon, I will be joining/playing factions that are close to being 'good'. I will most likely not deal with factions that support activities that are 'evil'. I don't know how VR will deal with the finer points of that, so I can't comment on it yet. All I can say that if it's not a clear cut thing, I will just make on the fly decisions and meta gameplay will trump 'class fantasy' when needed.   

    • 1320 posts
    May 17, 2022 9:17 AM PDT

    Dikenzu said:

    All I can say that if it's not a clear cut thing, I will just make on the fly decisions and meta gameplay will trump 'class fantasy' when needed.   

    You, me, and everyone else will do this at some point... which is why some of us argue that alignment restrictions on a job is silly.  We understand physical or mental limitations and maybe even racist teachers refusing to share knowledge.. but that's about as far as my belief in the 'class fantasy' lore can go.  To believe that someone is incapable of following a religion based solely on their ethnicity is a bit much... but I could see racism preventing the acceptance of someone based on their race... since that is the literal definition of racism. 

    Lets not confuse or conflate discrimination with deliniation.  I'm find with fictional racism in the game if that's the direction we choose to go, but lets not call it a philosophical debate on the beliefs of good and evil; especially when at the end of the day we are all going to "make on the fly decisions and meta gameplay". 

    If we don't meta gameplay, the second a Paladin kills anything that isn't undead, they should have to re-roll their character because they just became evil (unless vengeful murder and rummaging through the corpse (maybe even wearing their clothes and definitely stealing their money) in the name of their god is somehow "good"... so silly).