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Disappearing threads

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    • 96 posts
    April 9, 2019 11:26 AM PDT

    stellarmind said:

    Ghool said: The reason praise threads don't get deleted is because they don't devolve into useless and potentially toxic and pointless debate. The point of this space is to provide a safe gathering space for supporters to discuss and debate the game in a healthy and positive manner. When a thread devolves into a debate on politics, sex, or beliefs, it's going to get shut down. And that's exactly what the female characters thread was becoming. Second, the models and style are already chosen, concepted, and are currently being modeled. Debating the point is a useless endeavor right now because it's not going to change. Third, this is supposed to be a welcoming place for new pledges and old ones alike. Toxic debates and threads will not make this feel as though a warm and welcoming place for fans to gather. Instead it will become a playground of insults and toxicity tossed about without any regard for anyone new looking in. Assumptions aside, take a look at it from owning the business yourself and how you want new customers to perceive the fan community surrounding that business.

     

    isn't the style going to be more reserved?  that's why the og thread popped up in the first place right?  

    You seem to have missed everything I said......healthy debate vs. toxic. When sex, and sexualization are discussed, it always devolves into a insult hurling affair.

    And what's the point of the debate if the style is already decided? Making your opinions known is one thing, but debating it into the ground when it's going to have ZERO affect on the finished product, and then turning said debate into a over-sexualization of women debate.......does not a healthy or positive debate make.

    You seem to forget that this about building a positive and supportive community, and to give the appearance of such enough that toxic unhealthy debates, and RSP threads get shut down. They are not needed here.

    Again, how do you expect to build a supportive and cooperative community if you're not promoting it on your own forums???


    This post was edited by Ghool at April 9, 2019 11:28 AM PDT
    • 510 posts
    April 9, 2019 11:26 AM PDT

    stellarmind said:

    Nanfoodle said:

    This really concerns me... (((takes a pause)))

     

    don't you mean:  this really concerns me... ((censored))?

     

    Yes because my wife and I did back this game to be able to give feedback. This feels like only acceptable topics are open to feedback and that really gives me pause to speak up. The thread in question was respectable and some good conversations were going. This has happened on a few topics over the years and this really saddens me. I won’t get into what this means to me or this type of trend I have seen in past games that do this but this has already scared me away from these forums in the past. Guess I will just wait to see what they make and stop sharing my thoughts on what I see. 


    This post was edited by Nanfoodle at April 9, 2019 11:33 AM PDT
    • 96 posts
    April 9, 2019 11:31 AM PDT

    Sunglare said:

    Ghool said: The reason praise threads don't get deleted is because they don't devolve into useless and potentially toxic and pointless debate. The point of this space is to provide a safe gathering space for supporters to discuss and debate the game in a healthy and positive manner. When a thread devolves into a debate on politics, sex, or beliefs, it's going to get shut down. And that's exactly what the female characters thread was becoming. Second, the models and style are already chosen, concepted, and are currently being modeled. Debating the point is a useless endeavor right now because it's not going to change. Third, this is supposed to be a welcoming place for new pledges and old ones alike. Toxic debates and threads will not make this feel as though a warm and welcoming place for fans to gather. Instead it will become a playground of insults and toxicity tossed about without any regard for anyone new looking in. Assumptions aside, take a look at it from owning the business yourself and how you want new customers to perceive the fan community surrounding that business.

     

    Ahh "Toxic" THe new catch phrase to shut down any discussion people don't like. The game is still pre-Alpha, nothing is solid so it's still very valid to have these discussions. The last stream with Coh Carnage said they are still working on character models and animations. Nothing is a useless endeavor. 

    I'll also point out that nothing can be said without somebody trying to be smart or savvy. Let's call it unhealthy debate then, shall we?

    Has no one thought about this from the perspective of being the owner or developer here? It doesn't appear so.

    • 1329 posts
    April 9, 2019 11:35 AM PDT

    i'm going to pull a tanix here:

     
    tox·ic
    /ˈtäksik/
    adjective
     
    1. 1.
      poisonous.
      "the dumping of toxic waste"
      synonyms: poisonousvenomousvirulentnoxiousdangerousdestructiveharmfulunsafemalignantinjuriouspestilentialperniciousenvironmentally unfriendlyMore
       
         
       
    2. 2.
      FINANCE
      denoting or relating to debt which has a high risk of default.
       
    noun
     
    1. 1.
      poisonous substances.
       
       
      the discussion really went that way(subjective).  said thread was more or less about revealing outfits vs reserve outfits in a high fantasy.  it was constructive in both sides of the arguement (for the most part) and didn't really devolve.  i did throw some jokes in there.
       
      illustr 1a.
       
      long life the meme!
    • 1329 posts
    April 9, 2019 11:37 AM PDT

    hm i should tread carefully.  i've posted this several times and is a breach of tos....  i might go to forum jail... tell overlord kilsin, i'm sorry i had to do it.

    • 96 posts
    April 9, 2019 11:40 AM PDT
    I'm trying to point out that a thread filled with negativity, and unhealthy debate is not how you attract new players, nor how you build a supportive and cooperative community.
    • 1329 posts
    April 9, 2019 11:48 AM PDT

    Ghool said: I'm trying to point out that a thread filled with negativity, and unhealthy debate is not how you attract new players, nor how you build a supportive and cooperative community.

     

    oya i agree.  i'm no genius nor do i have demographic information, from just perusing the forums we have a very diverse group of players very well versed in mmos.  most new players to the genre will not frequent the forums.  they'll look at the landing page. look at some information with the classes and maybe start to dig into the lore.

     

    i'm jaded a bit since i'm a pvper since the daoc days (i was a young lad then) so what may appear toxic to most players here (pve orientated) is just normal lingo.  i guess you can say it's like a sub english language XD

    • 84 posts
    April 9, 2019 1:58 PM PDT

    Ghool said: I'm trying to point out that a thread filled with negativity, and unhealthy debate is not how you attract new players, nor how you build a supportive and cooperative community.

     

    I didn't see it that way and this is the problem. Perception of attitude is open interpretation. As many had said the thread was full of lots of constructive discussion. This is another common problem in forums in the gaming community these days. People who dislike a topic and the opinions of those in the conversation will be quick to label it toxic and have a thread shut down. The game is in pre-alpha and they have said many times everything is still a work in progress and even if there is something the devs considered finalized any conversation could give the devs idea for future content. The whole "there is no point to discuss because it's set in stone" does not really hold any water, nobody would have any reason to discuss anything then. 

    • 1781 posts
    April 9, 2019 2:03 PM PDT

    Threads get locked sometimes or moved to the proper forum area. That isn't an issue.

    If threads are being removed all together that goes against some of Kilsins past statements on how the forums are moderated. That becomes an issue.

    Has there been a change in the way the forums will be moderated in the future?

    It seems odd because the forum here is usually a place where people can speak their mind but if the conversation devolves into being non-constructive the thread gets locked.

    I've never noticed a thread getting removed all together.  It seems strange it wouldn't just get locked like normal.


    This post was edited by philo at April 9, 2019 2:08 PM PDT
    • 1329 posts
    April 9, 2019 2:25 PM PDT

    Sunglare said:

    Ghool said: I'm trying to point out that a thread filled with negativity, and unhealthy debate is not how you attract new players, nor how you build a supportive and cooperative community.

     

    I didn't see it that way and this is the problem. Perception of attitude is open interpretation. As many had said the thread was full of lots of constructive discussion. This is another common problem in forums in the gaming community these days. People who dislike a topic and the opinions of those in the conversation will be quick to label it toxic and have a thread shut down. The game is in pre-alpha and they have said many times everything is still a work in progress and even if there is something the devs considered finalized any conversation could give the devs idea for future content. The whole "there is no point to discuss because it's set in stone" does not really hold any water, nobody would have any reason to discuss anything then. 

     

    do you think that's a societal issue (a result of the instant gratification?)

    • 1329 posts
    April 9, 2019 2:28 PM PDT

    the marshmellow experiment~

    • 1173 posts
    April 9, 2019 3:11 PM PDT

    The thread was 6 pages long about nothing.  Theres literally 2 sides.  The developers are aware of both sides.  You are upset about a thread regarding a topic of such minor importance, and yet I can't have an honest discussion about boxing because people lose their fricken minds when its brought up.

    There are a ton of pantheon fan sites.  Or for that matter.  Just join the pantheon reddit and remake the thread there if you feel theres more to discuss.  But making a public thread about moderation is useless.  If you have direct questions message kilsin.

    • 84 posts
    April 9, 2019 3:12 PM PDT

    stellarmind said:

    the marshmellow experiment~

    I'm trying to stay on topic but i have laughed at a few of your responses. :P

    • 84 posts
    April 9, 2019 3:18 PM PDT

    Porygon said:

    The thread was 6 pages long about nothing.  Theres literally 2 sides.  The developers are aware of both sides.  You are upset about a thread regarding a topic of such minor importance, and yet I can't have an honest discussion about boxing because people lose their fricken minds when its brought up.

    There are a ton of pantheon fan sites.  Or for that matter.  Just join the pantheon reddit and remake the thread there if you feel theres more to discuss.  But making a public thread about moderation is useless.  If you have direct questions message kilsin.

     

    Some issues have more priority to some then others, I could care less about boxing but i'm not going to jump on the boxing thread and talk about how pointless it is or demand it to be closed. 

    Somebody could easily say the same about the boxing thread, "it's toxic, it's 2 sided, it's pointless. It should just be put in private status, just go to reddit, just ask Kilsin directly"

    The point is it was a valid discussion and it wasn't simply closed, it was put in a state that people can't even see it now. It's in the FAQ but nobody has access to it. 

    • 96 posts
    April 9, 2019 4:12 PM PDT
    I never demanded any threads be closed.
    I only asked for more understanding of why the thread got shut down.
    I personally don't care what folks discuss.
    • 2808 posts
    April 9, 2019 6:44 PM PDT

    While it is out of the norm that it was removed entirely, I imagine it was relatively devoid of valuable discussion or "debate" that hasn't been addressed in other similar threads. I'd guess it devolved heavily into insults and attacks of "SJW" this or "beta male" that.

     

    I imagine Kilsin's answer would be much the same as his final thoughts on this thread: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/5287/request-female-character-model-in-the-next-stream/view/page/9

    Kilsin said:

    Ok folks, this has run its course for long enough now, we have made our intention very clear, yet people have their own preferences that will not always be in line with other players or our vision.

    I gave a warning back on page 5 to stop the opinion based arguments and people continued to ignore that request, so the thread will now be closed, please do not create another one on this topic or it will be closed and there may be further action taken.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Page 5 Warning:

    "Final Warning - Please refrain from opinion based arguments and equality arguments or the thread will be closed.

    Stop and think before you post "Is this constructive feedback that Kilsin can read, collect and gather?" or "Is this petty arguing over semantics because some prefer tougher looking plate wearing females and others prefer feminine looking ones?"

    We have both, we have only shown off a very small sample that we pre-selected for our stream, we do not have all models fully implemented, not all of them are completely finished, you will be able to make changes to your characters appearance at character select and we selected a strong human female Warrior for our stream, next time you may see something else entirely but our races are not limited to those few choices, so please stop the arguing."

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    We will provide options for both male and female characters, we will allow the customisation of both male and female characters and there will be a range of items, gear and weapons to suit both male and female characters that fits within our high fantasy world and follow the lore of Terminus.

    Please refer to our FAQ for further information or wait until we get into testing and provide your feedback there when you can actually experience it first hand and not debate and compare to other games and personal opinions.

    FAQ:

    Will the female character models be as attractive as depicted in the races section?

    We sure hope so. The female playable characters in Pantheon brings up an important point: they will be very attractive, heroic in appearance, a persona anyone could look up to; but they will not be overly sexualized. We want all players to be proud of their character and their appearance.

    Edited to remove code and un-break the thread :)


    This post was edited by Kilsin at April 9, 2019 8:11 PM PDT
    • 84 posts
    April 9, 2019 6:52 PM PDT

    Iksar said:

    While it is out of the norm that it was removed entirely, I imagine it was relatively devoid of valuable discussion or "debate" that hasn't been addressed in other similar threads. I'd guess it devolved heavily into insults and attacks of "SJW" this or "beta male" that.

     

    I imagine Kilsin's answer would be much the same as his final thoughts on this thread: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/5287/request-female-character-model-in-the-next-stream/view/page/9

    Kilsin said:

    Ok folks, this has run its course for long enough now, we have made our intention very clear, yet people have their own preferences that will not always be in line with other players or our vision.

    I gave a warning back on page 5 to stop the opinion based arguments and people continued to ignore that request, so the thread will now be closed, please do not create another one on this topic or it will be closed and there may be further action taken.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Page 5 Warning:

    "Final Warning - Please refrain from opinion based arguments and equality arguments or the thread will be closed.

    Stop and think before you post "Is this constructive feedback that Kilsin can read, collect and gather?" or "Is this petty arguing over semantics because some prefer tougher looking plate wearing females and others prefer feminine looking ones?"

    We have both, we have only shown off a very small sample that we pre-selected for our stream, we do not have all models fully implemented, not all of them are completely finished, you will be able to make changes to your characters appearance at character select and we selected a strong human female Warrior for our stream, next time you may see something else entirely but our races are not limited to those few choices, so please stop the arguing."

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    We will provide options for both male and female characters, we will allow the customisation of both male and female characters and there will be a range of items, gear and weapons to suit both male and female characters that fits within our high fantasy world and follow the lore of Terminus.

    Please refer to our FAQ for further information or wait until we get into testing and provide your feedback there when you can actually experience it first hand and not debate and compare to other games and personal opinions.

    FAQ:

    Will the female character models be as attractive as depicted in the races section?

    We sure hope so. The female playable characters in Pantheon brings up an important point: they will be very attractive, heroic in appearance, a persona anyone could look up to; but they will not be overly sexualized. We want all players to be proud of their character and their appearance.

     

     

    Interesting choice of possible insults being used, we know where you stood on the topic and it seems those who where agaist the discussion had no problem with it being removed. 

    I digress, nobody was insulting anybody in the thread directly but i dind't get to see the last 5 post before it was removed.  

     

    Edited to remove code and un-break the thread :)


    This post was edited by Kilsin at April 9, 2019 8:12 PM PDT
    • 51 posts
    April 9, 2019 7:56 PM PDT

    I posted twice in the last 5 posts (probably, I did have to go to work but the pace of new posts was not fast), and it was one guy going "yikes, so sexist title", another saying his SO thinks the female models looks like boys, which disinterested her, and myself, supporting better looking characters with the option to be homely or ugly if peeps want, followed by a brief correction about the structural integrity of the so called boob plate (with a link, naturally).

     

    If the thread ran it's course, which it clearly had not, then lock it and say so, it is really that simple and will only leave minor grumbling (mostly). Anyways, as I stated before, I really am looking forward to a third party forum. Also, no one against this has mentioned freedom of speech, like no one. Why do you guys keep talking about it?

     

    Also, to the guy who quoted me, I mostly agree, and I used nicer words than I felt, by only saying lame (which it was and still is). Not that I am irrationally irked by this, but my opinion of them definitely dropped.

    • Moderator
    • 8950 posts
    April 9, 2019 8:15 PM PDT

    Iksar said:

    While it is out of the norm that it was removed entirely, I imagine it was relatively devoid of valuable discussion or "debate" that hasn't been addressed in other similar threads. I'd guess it devolved heavily into insults and attacks of "SJW" this or "beta male" that.

     

    I imagine Kilsin's answer would be much the same as his final thoughts on this thread: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/5287/request-female-character-model-in-the-next-stream/view/page/9

    Kilsin said:

    Ok folks, this has run its course for long enough now, we have made our intention very clear, yet people have their own preferences that will not always be in line with other players or our vision.

    I gave a warning back on page 5 to stop the opinion based arguments and people continued to ignore that request, so the thread will now be closed, please do not create another one on this topic or it will be closed and there may be further action taken.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Page 5 Warning:

    "Final Warning - Please refrain from opinion based arguments and equality arguments or the thread will be closed.

    Stop and think before you post "Is this constructive feedback that Kilsin can read, collect and gather?" or "Is this petty arguing over semantics because some prefer tougher looking plate wearing females and others prefer feminine looking ones?"

    We have both, we have only shown off a very small sample that we pre-selected for our stream, we do not have all models fully implemented, not all of them are completely finished, you will be able to make changes to your characters appearance at character select and we selected a strong human female Warrior for our stream, next time you may see something else entirely but our races are not limited to those few choices, so please stop the arguing."

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    We will provide options for both male and female characters, we will allow the customisation of both male and female characters and there will be a range of items, gear and weapons to suit both male and female characters that fits within our high fantasy world and follow the lore of Terminus.

    Please refer to our FAQ for further information or wait until we get into testing and provide your feedback there when you can actually experience it first hand and not debate and compare to other games and personal opinions.

    FAQ:

    Will the female character models be as attractive as depicted in the races section?

    We sure hope so. The female playable characters in Pantheon brings up an important point: they will be very attractive, heroic in appearance, a persona anyone could look up to; but they will not be overly sexualized. We want all players to be proud of their character and their appearance.

    Edited to remove code and un-break the thread :)

    Thank you, Iksar, and yes it was removed for very similar reasons, except I didn't have time to moderate the whole thread so I archived it in an admin archive until I got time to do it today. It has now been moderated and returned to General discussion and closed, as per the previous thread.

    • Moderator
    • 8950 posts
    April 9, 2019 8:23 PM PDT

    This thread has also been moved, to Support, as it relates to a question about post removal/forums and has been closed, as it now has been answered and is no longer needed.

    Side Note: 

    I am all for freedom of speech and try to let as much go as I can but also keep in mind that investors, peers, games media and potential new members read these forums for free and often and therefore, I try to uphold a professional standard and order to keep everything as easy to find, read and comment on as possible, only stepping in when absolutely needed or multiple reports come in on certain posts/users/behaviour.

    So essentially, if you guys stay on topic, keep it mature and constructive, minimising arguments over opinions (my pet hate) and free from any personal attacks or guidelines breaches, your threads will stay and everyone can enjoy participating in them for years to come.

    If you're ever not sure, please send me a PM and ask, I am always happy to help where I can. :)