Well not going to argue over it just face the fact, we agree to disagree =)
One thing is somewhat important is why does this kind of threads pop upp, my humble opinion is that is a small identity chrisis for the players who will play the cleric-class
one of the main reasons (like this threads purpose is that many belive the cleric are missing something like solo capable, or not be able to shine in the normal cleric abilitys like rez or even heal)or dont have the nice grp based buffs/utility now i dont want to argue to mutch because we dont know how it will be spelled out it is only pre-alpha.But still this is something that is poping upp in clerics forum quite often
we only have meager information and that is always a a danger off theory-crafting from me or you iksar.
Aqua said:Well not going to argue over it just face the fact, we agree to disagree =)
One thing is somewhat important is why does this kind of threads pop upp, my humble opinion is that is a small identity chrisis for the players who will play the cleric-class
one of the main reasons (like this threads purpose is that many belive the cleric are missing something like solo capable, or not be able to shine in the normal cleric abilitys like rez or even heal)or dont have the nice grp based buffs/utility now i dont want to argue to mutch because we dont know how it will be spelled out it is only pre-alpha.But still this is something that is poping upp in clerics forum quite often
we only have meager information and that is always a a danger off theory-crafting from me or you iksar.
Too many people see Pantheon as Everquest² where every rule that applied there should also apply here. That's fortunately not the case and hopefully clerics will not compensate some utility with a shitton of heals as that would mean in a raid setup, you would only bring 1 druid, 1 shaman and a dozen of clerics (since utility can usually be applied to everyone/every boss with only one of thoses present).
I hope every player will bring it's contribution enough for being taken for their role.
I'd hate this. I'm pretty sure that VR stated that Pantheon classes will go to their roots with specific roles rather than sticking to modern trend of "everyone can do anything". Clerics should shine in healing, rez, constitution and will buffs and do great job (though far from BEST) while killing undeads. I'm already little worried that they'll have too much survivability with their full plate armors. Besides this is not solo friendly game and it shouldn't be - if soloing will become possible I hope it will be in "end game" when we not only have our character fully developed, but have gathered epic equipment as well.
Hegenox said:- if soloing will become possible I hope it will be in "end game" when we not only have our character fully developed, but have gathered epic equipment as well.
This statement is not great. This basically makes the idea of a cleric leveling not possible. What happens if someone comes later to the game or doesn't have friends while leveling? It's not like any of the pure dps classes will be unable to solo leveling content. Are you saying that clerics and other healers should not exist outside of dungeons and groups?
If this was really to be the case, seeing a healer would be next to 0 post launch. This would make healers so saught after that guilds will steal them the moment they can creating an endless supply of ladder guilds for healers who were around early enough to actually level one.
If it takes a healing class 4x as long to level solo that a dps class does, no one will be willing to play it. there needs to be balance. Where a dps class can kill 1 mob at a time, make it so healers are able to fight 2 at a time at half the speed. Making use of their healing abilities so that their exp gain per hour could equate to the same amount of time if played to its strengths.
Any class that is disadvantaged because of it's role so severly that it is undesirable to play without a group will inevitably be sugnificantly under played. A game can be all about group content all it wants, but if you make the game unaccessaable to those who are not in a party, you will have a dead game in a short amount of time.
This is not a doom and gloom tin foil hat rant, this has been proven over aand over again with various games that exist(ed) in the modern game market. Pantheon is competing with other titles available, so if you think they will be successful being the most hardcore grindy game, ask Wildstar how that worked out. I loved that game to pieces but there was very little accessable content to casual players and players of low skill level.
Having a game that REQUIRES many of its classes, primarily healers, to be constantly grouped and offer no compelling gameplay out of healing, is not a good way to go about it.
Besides why the heck would you even have a weapon if you never use it :D
That is an odd point of view Yaz. Do you understand that soloing is not being considered a viable way to advance by any class in this game? It is a group centric game. If someone is expecting to solo they will likely have a rude awakening at how slowly they will advance with any class when compared to grouping.
Oh and 100% some of the pure dps classes will not be able to efficiently solo content to lvl. Using early EQ as an example, rogues were pretty much top dps and really struggled to solo.
Clerics weren't "screwed" in EQ1. They were a class that needed a group. It was part of the game. The real travesty came when they added mercenaries. That's when clerics became obsolete. I hope they don't add mercenaries to Pantheon. If they do, it will kill the grouping dynamic.
Ghool said: I played a Cleric (Inquisitor) in EQ2 and they made it a much more dynamic and participatory in the combat. I rarely if ever sat down during combat as I was constantly healing and debuffing. Inqs were fantastic at debuffs and it also helped mitigate some of the heavy handed healing of the EQ1 cleric. I think the class had two DoTs and 2 nukes, so it was possible to solo, although it was much slower than most classes. I think the EQ2 cleric was one of the best implementations of the class.
As another EQ2 Inq main, I really liked some of the diversity of the class. As far as healers go they were one of the weakest, but the pay off was stackable ability buffs, best armor break in game, attacks changed to melee abilaties with low mana cost, and VERDICT.
I am hoping that the Pantheon cleric will have some similarity in play style, but as a new game I am just hoping for a new adventure.
Tahoe said:Ghool said: I played a Cleric (Inquisitor) in EQ2 and they made it a much more dynamic and participatory in the combat. I rarely if ever sat down during combat as I was constantly healing and debuffing. Inqs were fantastic at debuffs and it also helped mitigate some of the heavy handed healing of the EQ1 cleric. I think the class had two DoTs and 2 nukes, so it was possible to solo, although it was much slower than most classes. I think the EQ2 cleric was one of the best implementations of the class.
As another EQ2 Inq main, I really liked some of the diversity of the class. As far as healers go they were one of the weakest, but the pay off was stackable ability buffs, best armor break in game, attacks changed to melee abilaties with low mana cost, and VERDICT.
I am hoping that the Pantheon cleric will have some similarity in play style, but as a new game I am just hoping for a new adventure.
Oh man! I loved my EQ2 Inqui in PvP. I was OP as F_c_! Reflecting people's damage back at them, while simultaneously reactively healing based on the damage they dealt!?!? LOLs all day long!
I kinda disagree with this. I played a Cleric in EQ and Vanguard and I much prefered EQ. Vanguard while meleeing it was much too distracting to heal because melee was required to keep up with mana regen (if I remember correctly). In EQ I could focus just on healing and buffing.
Cleric in EQ solo was OK when you got the summoned hammer that was like around Gates of Discord era. I actually use to box a Cleric and Shaman (Shaman just for slows) with a Cleric and could farm blue-cons at 65, so they were not completely helpless as a duo at least. I also am fine with some classes not being able to solo. This is a multiplayer game afterall and you can roll alts.
Hegenox said:I'd hate this. I'm pretty sure that VR stated that Pantheon classes will go to their roots with specific roles rather than sticking to modern trend of "everyone can do anything". Clerics should shine in healing, rez, constitution and will buffs and do great job (though far from BEST) while killing undeads. I'm already little worried that they'll have too much survivability with their full plate armors. Besides this is not solo friendly game and it shouldn't be - if soloing will become possible I hope it will be in "end game" when we not only have our character fully developed, but have gathered epic equipment as well.
Ashreon said:Hegenox said:I'd hate this. I'm pretty sure that VR stated that Pantheon classes will go to their roots with specific roles rather than sticking to modern trend of "everyone can do anything". Clerics should shine in healing, rez, constitution and will buffs and do great job (though far from BEST) while killing undeads. I'm already little worried that they'll have too much survivability with their full plate armors. Besides this is not solo friendly game and it shouldn't be - if soloing will become possible I hope it will be in "end game" when we not only have our character fully developed, but have gathered epic equipment as well.
Nope.. Nope. Nope.
If EQ taught us anything it is that one class that shines at healing whilst the rest are subpar at best will be the only class that gets chosen for a group.
We cannot and we should not accept this in a game that is all about grouping. Leaving two out of three healers dead in the water because their Resurrection spell is not up to par with a Cleric, that they have worse overall healing than a Cleric, that they have less impactful buffs.
I literally was just a buff bot in EQ1 raids on my shaman throwing out my heal over time buffs, not because they were needed for healing, but because they were needed as filler buffs so that the chance of good buffs being dispelled was less likely. I remember just soloing from 1 to 60 because well, I could not get in to a party for dungeons, because they wanted Clerics in case of a wipe, I occasionally got in to a party because my BF played a Necromancer (thank ****) and could summon corpses for safe resurrections.
You want a succesfull game, you need to make concessions, you can't have class disparity in their role effectiveness.
What they _should_ do is make a clear distinction in how the various classes heal, buff and resurrect.
Clerics are your typical direct healers, Shamans your over time healers and druids the preventative healers. Give them all valuable buffs that any party would want and let them all restore XP equally. If you don't there is, yet again, literally no reason to choose a Shaman or a Druid over a Cleric. In a group minded game.. that's total bullshit. Just because everyone is equally effective does not mean that there won't be huge differences in how you play a class.
The whole "balanced in their role" thing is fine as long as the classes are balanced at the other stuff they bring too. One healer having portals while two don't is just as damaging to party desirability as one healer having better healing, one healer being able to do significantly more damage while keeping up with the healing, and so on.
I would gladly trade my ability to solo most things anywhere near efficiently for the ability to heal more than 1-2 people can dps in pvp. Thats my "cleric wish". I understand that pvp isn't for everyone, but there is nothing appealing about playing a class that feels like a handicap. Why take a cleric into the group if they can't keep someone alive? Why would you waste a slot on a healer when it isn't on parity with a disproportional amount of damage? I am sure there will be healing debuffs that can be applied to targets to ensure there aren't "unkillable" threats, but weak healing in general for pvp feels horrible. With that said, if it takes me three times as long to kill pve mobs and I'm out of mana when I do, I'm okay with that. If I wanted to slaughter enemies quickly I would play dps.